I realize that a thread that I really wish i couldve been privy to has been deleted , and this saddens me since this is a topic i really want to discuss and understand so that I try my best to respect Carolena and ATS in its true form. I am not trying to add insult to injury or add evil flame to the fire--- Ijust want some elaboration and ultimately, understanding of this heated topic.
I keep trying to equate ATS and belly dance to any of the western styles I grew up in, to try to give it the respect that is often lost on people- this parallel helps me with more concrete arguments when talking with people who dont get it as such.
So with that said-- there are many schools and dance companies in various genres that certainly have certain idiosyncrasies and stylization, but revert back to common terminology= movement vocabulary, all under the name/ genre of Jazz, ballet, contemporary dance, etc.
So is this to say the discussion was outlining the need for ATS to be only FCBD and Ms. Nericcio's movements from her classes/ dvd's? Hip bumps and pestles and basic egyptians etc are only to be done under the FCBD and therefore only ATS name?
This is getting so ugly you guys--- Isnt (at it's most basic definition) American Tribal Style group improv. using moves and combo's that are easy to cue and originate from basic belly dance movements? Isnt it up to various troupes to stylize them and create (to use Paulette Rees Denis' phrase) "mini combo's" that are unique to each troupe, all while using the basic terminology-- otherwise there might not be a tribal union ( formal or informal!). I so loved running up to some then not familiar dancers in Brooklyn and Improv'ing up a storm. That shit is fun!
Am i totally missing the point? seriously--- I am not trying to be fresh or rude. i want to understand this. When thing-- when i was studying ballet and jazz and modern, etc, there werent certain instructors or professors that taught "their" only moves-- sure there was Vaganova Russian ballet technique vs Cechetti italian vs Bournonville french vs. American Ballet Theater and Balanchine, and Martha Graham, Alvin Ailey, Isadora Duncan, ....oh you get my point, but they had the same terminology.
So ironic ( and I swear I am really bringin this to a close...) that the most freeing dance I have ever found has ben the most argued over and restrictive as far as expression. Lately I so feel as though no matter what-- I will never follow or get all the rules to make a proper belly dancer. there are just too many opposing arguments that all seem to be the right one!
*sigh* whew. that was purgative.
reply to this post
I keep trying to equate ATS and belly dance to any of the western styles I grew up in, to try to give it the respect that is often lost on people- this parallel helps me with more concrete arguments when talking with people who dont get it as such.
So with that said-- there are many schools and dance companies in various genres that certainly have certain idiosyncrasies and stylization, but revert back to common terminology= movement vocabulary, all under the name/ genre of Jazz, ballet, contemporary dance, etc.
So is this to say the discussion was outlining the need for ATS to be only FCBD and Ms. Nericcio's movements from her classes/ dvd's? Hip bumps and pestles and basic egyptians etc are only to be done under the FCBD and therefore only ATS name?
This is getting so ugly you guys--- Isnt (at it's most basic definition) American Tribal Style group improv. using moves and combo's that are easy to cue and originate from basic belly dance movements? Isnt it up to various troupes to stylize them and create (to use Paulette Rees Denis' phrase) "mini combo's" that are unique to each troupe, all while using the basic terminology-- otherwise there might not be a tribal union ( formal or informal!). I so loved running up to some then not familiar dancers in Brooklyn and Improv'ing up a storm. That shit is fun!
Am i totally missing the point? seriously--- I am not trying to be fresh or rude. i want to understand this. When thing-- when i was studying ballet and jazz and modern, etc, there werent certain instructors or professors that taught "their" only moves-- sure there was Vaganova Russian ballet technique vs Cechetti italian vs Bournonville french vs. American Ballet Theater and Balanchine, and Martha Graham, Alvin Ailey, Isadora Duncan, ....oh you get my point, but they had the same terminology.
So ironic ( and I swear I am really bringin this to a close...) that the most freeing dance I have ever found has ben the most argued over and restrictive as far as expression. Lately I so feel as though no matter what-- I will never follow or get all the rules to make a proper belly dancer. there are just too many opposing arguments that all seem to be the right one!
*sigh* whew. that was purgative.
reply to this post
posted by:
|
Connecticut
|
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 7:33 AMI assume (and you know what that spells... making an a** out of Umption ;o) you are referring to the thread in the FCBD tribe?
How disturbing. I can't find it either. Not that I thought you were fibbin', but that was some dang fine info over there. Carolena put in some incredible information about herstory etc. Not to mention the other amazing critiques and responses. I'm sure it rivaled Greek discourse. I'm sorry to see it out of the archives. That is quite a shame. But certainly not unheard of. History is constantly edited. :)
What we are seeing, IMO, is the heat and bubble of the chaos cauldron of creativity. We are the exciting participants of a really heady roller coaster ride headed to who-knows-where.
This *is* bellydance gaining independence. This is bellydance hashing out what it is. Because if it doesn't, it can't gain authority and respect. The world out there demands definitions so it can feel it understands the art form. It likes things in short blurbs so it can put it in the encyclopedia and claim it.
What we are seeing is the questioning of authority. A very important step in the process. All of those lovely styles you listed off fought for it. We just weren't there to be in the thick of it. I'm sure it was just as hot on the battlefield as it is here.
So, behaving is quite out of the question, I'm afraid. Otherwise, this whole thing will collapse. The misbehaving is the energy that is feeding the flame of creativity right now. And yes, it's uncomfortable. The process of questioning and being questioned brings new things to light that need to be crafted and honed.
It will all cool down eventually and hopefully, we'll have an amazing sword to balance and wield. Then we will see if we have the strength and the maturity to master the sword. How long will that take? [shrug] Who knows? But the light show is spectacular. Is it not truly glorious to take a step back and see the amazing depth of power and feeling here? I feel honored to be in this moment with you and our global tribe trying to find our way in this brave new frontier.
I hear that you want to show respect and to understand. And that you are frustrated about the thread disappearing.
Know that you are Witnessed.
Andrea. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 12:04 PMNicely put... If only we can all see this as a learning process that is difficult but rewarding, instead of a nasty bad icky topic to be avoided.
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 8:43 AMI'm not going to jump back into the thick of it all, but I did want to clarify one (small/huge) thing.
"So is this to say the discussion was outlining the need for ATS to be only FCBD and Ms. Nericcio's movements from her classes/ dvd's? Hip bumps and pestles and basic egyptians etc are only to be done under the FCBD and therefore only ATS name? "
The assertion that only FCBD could use the moves was never made in that discussion, and to the best of my knowledge has never been made elsewhere. Just didn't want anyone to think that it was about FCBD trying to say that no one else can do an Egyptian Basic or something crazy like that.
The basic gist of it was that while the dance has been taken by others and made into their own thing, could the name "ATS" please be reserved for the troupe that created the style, and those who follow it exactly.
It was never about what anyone should or "shouldn't" (ugh) be *doing*...it's about the naming of it all and the confusion that comes from everone saying that they do ATS, but everyone isn't actually doing the same thing.
In the end, I personaly think that part of the confusion comes from the fact that different people have applied different meanings to the term "ATS". For some, it is a generic term, much like "ballet". For others, it is a specific term, like "Martha Graham", not only encompassing "group improv, using cued moves and combos", but specifically Carolena's vocabulary of moves, as well as her overall aesthetic and rules of the road for how they are presented. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 9:07 AMExcellent points.
I agree with you regarding the misconception for "possession" of move names and the should/shouldn't wars. I think that is a trickle over effect from the bellydance community in general.
I like your clarity regarding the applied different meanings of "ATS". I, too, think this is the case. I also think that for better or worse, "ATS" has been redefined by popular (mis)use like the words "Kleenex" and "Xerox" and "Coke". I do like the clarity FC-ATS lends, but that could get kind of slippery slope-y?
I'm using FC-ATS in my overall communications because it seems to be fairly clear. And perhaps something Carolena could copyright should she feel the need. I've seen this same problem in the knitting community, of things. The term "Stitch and Bitch" has been cause for great uproar. Legal uproar. But it's people's livelihoods were talking about. The SnB term is in several book titles and another company is claiming ownership.
Blah blah blah... LOL I guess that's just to show that it isn't unique to bellydance. It seems to be a place we're at in a national way, and perhaps even a semi-global way.
Enjoying your lead,
Andrea. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Thu, August 9, 2007 - 10:00 PMFC-ATS. tee hee (i read "Fat CATS") (o:
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 11:27 AM*sighs*
It still comes down to this...
ATS was the moniker (from Carolena "In Vol.1 I say that "we learned our style was called ATS", because we didn't come up with the term. It was created by Morocco") given to the style created by Carolena and promoted through FatChance
Over the many years since other dancers who trained under FatChance and other ATS teachers created new moves and new dance agreements for their performance troupes that are still following the forms of ATS. These troupes have been promoting , dancing and teaching "ATS" for years and have at this point literally trained thousands of dancers.
FCBD states that only FCBD format moves and rules are "ATS" period.
This creates.. friction and dissent that is longstanding, distasteful, confusing and unnecessary to those entering the community.
So who decides? One person? one troupe? Or is it the dance community as a whole and how it views its own history (not just one perspective of "history")?
Remember, This thread started up again by people mulling over the idea of an ATS only day at TribalFest. Chuck made a response questioning how many troupes we could really get to fill that bill. Then shortly after someone asked... "Is BlackSheep ATS or Tribal"... The one word answer was "Tribal".
SO... by this logic... people were essentially posing to that Kajira should put on an ATS only day at Tribal Fest... (get this) that HER OWN TROUPE AND ATS FORMAT would not be "qualified" to dance at. Not to mention the fact that other legit and hardworking ATS troupes of different formats would be excluded from this and other "ATS" only events.
So.. in light of this, do you see why it gets peoples dander up?
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 11:58 AMDano...I'll drink to that!
I agree with a community sized decision...
NEVER in my life will I agree to a decision created by 1 person and *dictated* to all.
I've studied enough *history* to know that dictatorship only ends in ruin.
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 11:59 AMThis is really painful Dano. I am not trying to "take" anythng from you (I don't even know you or why you are so adamant about attacking me.) I am trying to "give" to the community while maintaining something for myself and, as Marci stated, those who chose to go with my aesthetic.
The gist of it is that i didn't finalize my ATS project until this year-1987-2007. Twenty years of creation and experimentation that led to the style as I present it today.
As for business, yes some people have used the tern ATS in titles of videos, books, articles, etc. I am not saying that there needs to be a retraction or reprint of anything. I am just saying that from now on out, I prefer that the term ATS refer to my creation and anyone that wants to follow it. If there have been changes, I would consider it Tribal because the aesthetic has been changed. Dancers that feel they have created a step or formation can run it by me in person or via video for possible inclusion into the family of ATS.
I am now going to step out of this conversation. As big a figurehead as people make me out to be, I am a person with feelings who has dedicated 20 years to creating something for you all to enjoy and my heart is breaking from all of this bickering. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 12:12 PM"why you (dano) are so adamant about attacking me"
he's not attacking you, in my opinion. everyone has heart in this subject, on the flip side other groups feel attacked too. i don't. i see this as an open discussion amongst this dance community.
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 12:48 PMCarolena, you know that no way do we mean you any disrespect. In fact we have always held you, and Kajira more than anyone else, in the highest requard. Doing, creating what you have is nothing short of life altering, world changing.
What you have created has given so much to so many. Made people famous and given so many a way to live their lifes, make money and give something back. That can never be undone.
The problem as I see it, and yes I'm not a dancer, just a hubby of one and so my outlook is not as informed as most, is that for years, people and troups have been calling themselves "ATS" out of respect for you and what you have done and taught them. Giving you and FCBD props along the way, spreading your word and your love and your life's work around the world.
Now you would like a change so that what many people have thought of themselves for years as "ATS" to stop doing that, and that hurts them and many take it personal believing what they have done for years is "ATS" inspired by you.
It's just hard is all.... change always is.
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 12:48 PMCarolena,
I understand that it is painful. I can only imagine what it is like to be in your shoes, but probably not very well.
I have never attacked you. I have an opinion and perspective that differ's from yours. I make honest effort not to "attack" people.
I'm sorry if you feel attacked but then you are in the limelight as being the prime instigator of this tradition.
I have stated before that I respect you and the work that you have and continue to do.
Indeed I owe you alot. If it wasn't for your vision then the lineage of dance that, was learned by Kajira ispired her and then taught to my wife Seba would not exist. Without your vision the bellydance world would be a poorer place. No one doubts that nor do the diminish it. So I respect you, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you.
In the 20 years of your work... Other people have been hard at work to. Promoting ATS as legit Dance style. Now they can't identify as ATS anymore if they are to "respect you". You drew a the line in the sand. A line that causes reactions from MANY people., not just one or two. It Its a rock and a hard place. Noone wants to disrespect you but ATS into its own being both in your camp and outside of it. I understand you wanting to protect your format and vision. I also feel that you are embedded in your position that I wonder if you can honestly hear and empathize with others.
You say you are not taking anything away from me well no... hmm aside from making us change the text on all our class flyers, business cards, web advertisements, Yellowpages ads, Class descriptions in the Rhonert Park Rec. dept flyers etc. and apart from having to explain to all the students that have learned the KD/DSBD format that they aren't ATS anymore.... well I guess you are.
Carolena, I wouldn't be debating this just for giggles. I too am invested in this "business of ATS" (though of course not nearly to the level of you or even Kajira) but you see.. my Family's budget also includes the running BlackSheep BellyDance CA . There is a next generation (and a next and a next I hope) always coming into this community.
So.. the big pink elephant in the living room that no on asks is this...
How much of this is protecting the integrity of your format ?(A good goal think we all can agree on)
And how much is really about business and market share?
You mentioned that of course ATS is a business, you (rightfully) want your chunk of that pie. You may or may not be entitled to the whole pie.
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 1:06 PMDano,
It's not about money. I am 46 years old, I own a house, run a dance studio and business, have created 11 dvds, 3 cds, a Folkwear pattern and booklet, a book and numerous other profit-making items. I have a retirement fund (something I'd like to start using really soon!) and am not in fear of my livelihood.
It's all about protecting the format and zero about market share. If it were about market share I would have trademarked the term long ago and kept it for myself. But that would have killed the concept because it took 20 years to complete the project. I could trademark it now, but as you say, it would put me in the position of forcing all the troupes, such as yours, to reword and republish your advertising and cause you much expense. That's not how I operate. All I'm saying is that I want people to understand the difference btwn true ATS and creative off-shoots, aka Tribal.
You don't have to change any of your media, just be clear that you are BSBD-ATS when you communicate with others.
The topic at the beginning of this thread was "Can there be an all ATS show." And my answer to that was that when people change the format and add their own styling, it's no longer "dancing", it's "mimicking" because the other movements are not in the dancers muscle memory. To really "dance' one has to commute the movements.
Perhaps we can have a face to face discussion about how to proceed with the terminology in the future, so that it's good all the way around. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 4:30 PMI hear you Carolena,
Thanks very much for the honest answer, I had to ask the question to get it out of the way. If its about the format then I really do understand your passion and don't question your dedication. Online discussions are so easy to get off-kilter and have the intent misread.
I would honor the ability to talk with you... but guessing how busy you are I wouldn't even dream of asking. (and, frankly I would actually be a little intimidated) because believe it or not... to me, as to many young dancers, you are is this Mythical larger than life figure. Maybe next time I see you at an event I'll be brave enough to say hello.
Dan -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 7:50 PMDano I don’t know you either, and I feel this isn’t really my fight, but as someone who has studied with Carolena and who worked hard to be part of FatChance (I'm an ex-Fatty), I feel compelled to jump in and defend her and her art form, and the use of the term ATS.
Nothing is more frustrating to an ATS- trained dancer than to meet dancers who say they are ATS, and then find out you have no moves in common. I run into this a lot outside of San Francisco.
But what really surprised me most, and I just had to laugh in astonishment when I read this, is that you’re intimidated to talk to Carolena.
Honestly, you are around strong powerful women everyday (many whom I know and admire) . She’s 5’4”, quite human and is only 2 area codes away. Buck up Dano. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 8:12 PMI'm only 5'2"!! -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 8:14 PMHey, you still have me beat by two inches!
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 10:00 PMwow, you just completely blew that out of proportion. once again, clearly dano is not trying to cut on carolena. quit trying to martyr her. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 10:12 PMokay, that's ENOUGH, megan. you are becoming disrespectful, and i won't tolerate that. either keep your tone civil, or don't bother posting here. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Wed, August 8, 2007 - 8:21 AM"*But what really surprised me most, and I just had to laugh in astonishment when I read this, is that you’re intimidated to talk to Carolena*.
Honestly, you are around strong powerful women everyday (many whom I know and admire) . She’s 5’4”, quite human and is only 2 area codes away. *Buck up Dano.*"
-sorry wendy, you're right, i was starting to be out of line. my apologies, i just can't help but feel like that comment was condescending. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Wed, August 8, 2007 - 9:32 AMIt *might* have been an attempt at humor. A play on the catchphrase, "Book 'em, Dano!" from the old cop show Hawaii 5-0. Maybe I'm showing my age here! ;-) Biting humor doesn't always come across well on the Internet. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Wed, August 8, 2007 - 10:10 AMoh, i definitely saw it as a joke!
i think tensions have gotten really high regarding this subject. it seems like things are cooling down now, but i just want to remind people that behind all these posts, are real people, with real feelings. obviously, some of us are very close to the subject at hand, and have invested a lot of our time, energy and passion in our dance.
please, when you respond to something that pushes a button for you, try to remember to respond as if that person you are talking to, or about, is right in front of you, where you can see their facial expressions and their reactions. it's really easy to forget that, on the internet.
thank you.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 10:44 PM"Nothing is more frustrating to an ATS- trained dancer than to meet dancers who say they are ATS, and then find out you have no moves in common. I run into this a lot outside of San Francisco. "
I have to admit, I've only taken ATS classes for about six months, but that's already a point that's frustrated me. I would share some of what I learned with the troupe I was in and the troupe leader would do the same move in a different way which made a particular cue for a variation I'd learned completely moot because the cue became part of the base move instead. It's not a bad thing, it's just different.
However, that was a point of frustration for me. I wanted to learn ATS because it's a universal format. I wanted to know I could go to the drum circle and meet up with a friend who had also studied ATS and improv with them. Why? Because I love it, because it's so much fun, because it allows for a connection beyond mirroring. I wanted to be able to meet up with my friend in Canada, who I've never so much as met in person before, and be able to dance with her because she does ATS as well. If every variation on it is still ATS, then that means I may be unable to dance with someone because we don't know the same vocabulary of moves. It's no longer universal and becomes something that has to be re-learned everywhere you go.
Now maybe this is just something more important to me than everyone else because my husband is in the military. It means I can't just pick up where I left off with every move. I can't just join in with the community. I have to find a new place, which is something hard when I may only have a year where I'm living before I have to move on. I certainly don't expect to be able to dive straight into a troupe when I get to a new place, but to be able to improv and to dance with others at drum circles and other events is very important to me. If ATS is defined as one format, then I'm able to do that, but if every off-shoot is considered ATS, that can't happen.
That's not to say that ATS shouldn't change over time. Realistically, all things will change in time. New moves will be incorporated into the style. If it didn't evolve, what good would it be? But there should be a system to ensure that everything new included holds with the original format and doesn't contradict anything. It's something that will need to be worked out in time.
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Sat, August 11, 2007 - 7:28 PMWell, I was (and am still) totally intimidated at the thought of talking to Carolena. I met her at Tribal Pura this summer in DC and could not get up the balls to ask for a picture of me with her and Megha - and if you knew me you'd know how unusual that is LOL. I wish I had gotten the pic. Next time for sure. I've been watching the FCBD videos for over 10 years. To me, Carolena is like a movie star. I was ready to hyperventilate at the thought of dancing in front of her at Tribal Pura, and I've been belly dancing for 14 years, most of that not FCBD format though. She said "that's my girl" to me at the workshop and I have been floating and hugging the thought of it ever since (I, um, used the men's room when the women's bathroom ran out of toilet paper, and I nearly walked into her coming out of the men's room. Hey, we were the only people in the building and you gotta do what you gotta do). I still haven't worked up the nerve to email Carolena about the list of ATS moves and the zills handout that she mentioned at Tribal Pura. I fully admit I am a huge fangirl for Carolena. I would probably faint if I tried to call her up and chat on the phone. I turned bright red just reading a reply she posted to me here on tribe. LOL.
And I was totally surprised to find myself 5 inches taller than Carolena. I looked at one of my FCBD DVD covers when I got home and had to wonder how tall Rina is, she looks shorter than Carolena by a few inches, but I wasn't sure if that was the perspective or a true representation of respective heights. I would probably also blush and stammer if I ever met Rina LOL. I'm a big dorky fangirl, what can I say. ;)
-
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Wed, August 8, 2007 - 5:34 PM"The topic at the beginning of this thread was "Can there be an all ATS show." And my answer to that was that when people change the format and add their own styling, it's no longer "dancing", it's "mimicking" because the other movements are not in the dancers muscle memory. To really "dance' one has to commute the movements. "
I couldn't bring myself to wade through the other thread, so pardon me if this has already been explained, but Carolena, I do not understand what you are saying here re: once moves are changed it's just mimicking and not in the muscle memory. Could you please enlighten me? -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Thu, August 9, 2007 - 6:55 AMRenee,
I don't mean that when the moves are changed that you are only mimicking. What I mean is that if you want to be able to dance with another dancer in a spontaneous/improv way, you both need to know the same movements. Otherwise you will only be mimicking/copying eachother's moves. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Thu, August 9, 2007 - 11:44 AMAh. Thanks you for clarifying :)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 12:13 PM>specifically Carolena's vocabulary of moves, as well as her overall aesthetic and rules of the road for how they are presented. <
To me, that's ATS. She created it, and we're all benefiting from that creation; she wants to delineate what that is, and since she's very clear in her guidelines, I think that's absolutely fine. It's not a slam to anyone else dancing a tribal improv style; it's simply a definition of a term.
(and no, I don't dance ATS. There's no one in my immediate area prepared to teach it, and the troupe with which I dance wouldn't make the switch even if there was; we have our way of doing things, and we enjoy the hell out of it--we dance tribal improv, and we love it!)
Incidentally, I'm not saying everyone--or anyone--has to agree with me. I'm just a voice in the community, weighing in with my opinion.
:-)
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 12:04 PMBehaving has nothing toi do with why the thread was deleted, personally I do not know why the thread was deleted.
Ideas were being exchanged, thoughts hopes and feelings. I don't think it got heated, personal (although some might have taken it that way) nasty or mean.
Why was it deleted? Only the moderator knows because they are the only ones who could delete it other than the original poster I think.
Maybe they just thought that the thread was going no where. Maybe they thought that they had shared enough of their side and that was all there was to say.
I don't know. All I know is that it was deleted after Kajira made a responce to Wendy about Odissi moves.
If someone would explain why it was deleted, maybe that would clear things up.
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 12:16 PMAs far as I can tell, this is a open question. It has been for a while now.
Whenever it is brought to the table, it causes a lot of discomfort.
My bottom line for now is:
- I accept that the definition is in dispute
- Whenever someone uses the term "ATS", I need to ask what they mean instead of assuming anything
- Considering what Carolena just wrote, I will use the terms "ATS" and "Tribal" in the way she requests because I feel it shows my respect to her and her creation (my choice, not a dictum; it is what I am most comfortable with)
Remember that the definition of this group is "ATS as taught by Carolena, Founder of FatChanceBellyDance". We are discussing this in their virtual studio's front hall.
I bow out of this conversation too. It's served it purpose for me.
Respectfully,
Andrea. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, June 10, 2008 - 2:28 AM"- Considering what Carolena just wrote, I will use the terms "ATS" and "Tribal" in the way she requests because I feel it shows my respect to her and her creation"
absolutely!
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 1:36 PMIt would be helpful if everyone else could come up with and agree upon an appropriate yet different name for not-strictly-FCBD tribal dance.
American Tribal Improv. American Tribal Bellydance. Tribal Improv Bellydance. Whatever. Carolena has certainly earned the right to name and define her style, and the rest of us can end this argument by picking another name. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 1:49 PMAmy (over here in Unmata-land) has started using the term ITS, for Impov Tribal Style. Just an FYI for those curious about other names that might apply. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Tue, August 7, 2007 - 10:26 PMJust thought I'd share. I like the term ITS. And I think it really would be constructive to try and put other names out there. I think that would be the most constructive "end" to this discussion. -
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Wed, June 4, 2008 - 4:31 AMRandom Thoughts in no particular order.......................
I am beginning to define Pedralta Dance more as World Fusion Dance.
Pedralta uses ATS (in the FCBD sense) but we also go back to the basics of Flamenco and other styles like Saaidi and incorporate suitable moves into an improvised tribal format. We are very clear, when teaching these styles, when we're teaching ATS and when we're teaching Pedralta Fusion ( We don't learn combos for other tribal troupes but prefer to research and incorporate our own.) The problem, if it is a problem, with using the term tribal fusion, is that folks now think of Rachel's fusion style. Wondrful though that is, it's not what we do.
All our students learn ATS first before they move on to fusion. I think that's a must.
I'm not entirely sure that Carolena would be able to copyright ATS now. It's been aound for so long and has been used by so many. Other dancers must have contributed ideas throughout its development. Also it's been called ATS throughout the 20 years it's been in development yet the moves and feel have changed considerably. Compare Tattooed One to the later San Francisco Beledi and the format as it stands today. In Tattooed One I see Gypsy Caravan.
I think the essential part of ATS is the improvisational element.
American Tribal Style is an odd name anyway, especially as I teach and perform in the UK and Europe. It takes so much explaining :) I'm happy to go along with ATS for the FCBD format and Pedralta Fusion or World Dance Fusion for the other.
I think these discussions are healthy and I don't see the need for anyone to be be offended or hurt.................. or agreed with. We're grown-ups :)
On internet forums and e-mails in general...
If it sounds rude it's probably the way it's read. It's difficult to put tone on the page. I'm smiling :D
-
-
Re: Ok--Can we please behave?
Thu, August 9, 2007 - 7:53 PM
-
-
