Hello!
I've been checking out Vol. 7 of the FCBD DVDs and am just DYING to do laybacks. Currently, though, I just can't go that far, at least not nearly enough to even count for a layback. I do have some hope because months ago I couldn't do deep backbends very far at all but with practice I can now do them pretty fluidly and go back nicely. And I've never had any back pain or back problems, so when I try and do a layback it's not a matter of pain stopping me, I simply can't get my torso to lay down that far back.
So is it strong back muscles that make the Layback possible? Strong abs? What exercises or practices can I do to work up the strength and ability to go that deeply?
Thanks!
I've been checking out Vol. 7 of the FCBD DVDs and am just DYING to do laybacks. Currently, though, I just can't go that far, at least not nearly enough to even count for a layback. I do have some hope because months ago I couldn't do deep backbends very far at all but with practice I can now do them pretty fluidly and go back nicely. And I've never had any back pain or back problems, so when I try and do a layback it's not a matter of pain stopping me, I simply can't get my torso to lay down that far back.
So is it strong back muscles that make the Layback possible? Strong abs? What exercises or practices can I do to work up the strength and ability to go that deeply?
Thanks!
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 5:25 PMHey, Caryn-
Some of what goes into laybacks are strong but flexible back muscles, also, your psoas muscle is involved. It has to be open and flexible, as well. But one of the biggest factors is the shape of your vertabrae. If you have very square vertabrae, you will only be able to go back so far. (This is the case with me-the way my vertabrae are shaped means I can only go back so far). If your vertabrae are more rounded, you'll be able to go farther back.
If it's flexibility and strength, that comes with time and work. Just be able to tell the difference between muscle/tissue pain or tension, and bone on bone compression.
Good luck! -
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 5:25 PMI forgot-the cobra pose in yoga is really good for preparing for laybacks. -
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 5:55 PMQuestion about the Cobra pose- are you supposed to curl up using the back muscles only with no real weight on the arms, or do you use your arms to push and hold yourself up and back? -
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 6:16 PMMy understanding for Cobra pose is if you start from the position of having your hands flat on the floor in front of your shoulders, you press up using your arms, keeping your elbows close to your body. You can increase the size of the movement by coming back down and bringing your flat hands further down, closer to your chest, still keeping them shoulder width apart. I don't think you use your back muscles to curl up, just perhaps keeping your shoulderblades flat into your body and drawing down your shoulders.
I like to do the cobra pose to stretch out abdominals and train safely to see how far "back" you can go, without doing it on your feet, where your back is in a more vulnerable position.
I have a question about the Cobra too - I find I automatically contract my glutes when I do the Cobra pose. Are they supposed to be relaxed?
Cheers, Susan -
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 8:08 PMContracting the glutes while doing cobra helps open the hip & keeps you from overcompressing the back. I've had yoga instructors specifically say to contract, so I think you've got it right. Think of the butt and legs as the power generation while the front of the body releases. -
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Re: Laybacks
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 2:28 PMBut(t) do you want to contract the glutes during a layback? I never do because I find that it causes my low back to squench up. If I leave my glutes relaxed I feel like things have a place to contract/move to, rather than against a solid wall of glute muscle. I hope I haven't been doing it wrong all this time!
Confused!
~Kaytee -
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Re: Laybacks
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 7:38 PMI believe at the Tribal:Pura I attended a month or so ago, Carolena said to keep the glutes soft... however, I've had other teachers say to firm them up for a solid base. I'm not very good at the backbend part of laybacks (not very flexible :P) so I can't really comment for myself... it doesn't make much of a difference for me.
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Re: Laybacks
Fri, May 30, 2008 - 4:59 AMI think you've been doing it right. I've never contracted my glutes in a layback - but that IS what you'd do if you were doing the style of backbend where you push your hips forward (same hip-opening principle as camel & up-dog). The beauty of the layback in ATS is the length of the torso, so pushing your hips out would disrupt the look of it. -
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Re: Laybacks
Fri, May 30, 2008 - 5:31 AMok, phew. Thanks! I do keep my quads and hip flexers, etc., firm, lengthen and lean back leading with the chest, long neck. My (fl)abs of steel let me go as far back as I want and pull me back up.
I got momentarily worried when I read those yoga articles.
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 9:52 PMI've had yoga teachers talk about Cobra in 2 different ways: 1. using the arms to lift the torso, and 2. using the contraction of the back muscles to lift, and the hands are merely a support....
I'm not versed enough to know if it's a (yoga) stylistic difference, but I tend to personally like the #2 version better for my body: it makes me feel like I"m getting opening in the front of the body, but also strengthening of the back muscles....
As to what Wendy said, I think I've got fairly squarish (damn!!!) vertebrae also, and have had some snowboarding injuries to my low back, so I really have to watch what I do, going back....
But, I think there's a real balance in the body, too, that you have to maintain: some contraction in the lower abdominal region, to help support the lower back, and a nice strong lift in the upper body, to keep the ribcage supported. When I do those 2 things, it feels like the laying back action is more "elongated" somehow, and the compression that could happen in the lower vert. doesn't happen so quickly. Then, I tend to feel the "stretch" in the frontal hip area/flexors...
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 9:58 PM"I've had yoga teachers talk about Cobra in 2 different ways: 1. using the arms to lift the torso, and 2. using the contraction of the back muscles to lift, and the hands are merely a support....
I'm not versed enough to know if it's a (yoga) stylistic difference, but I tend to personally like the #2 version better for my body: it makes me feel like I"m getting opening in the front of the body, but also strengthening of the back muscles.... "
The yoga teacher I have right now goes for version #2. Once we are in Cobra, she has us lift our hands so it's just our back muscles lifting the upper body. I tend to like this version, too.
"But, I think there's a real balance in the body, too, that you have to maintain: some contraction in the lower abdominal region, to help support the lower back, and a nice strong lift in the upper body, to keep the ribcage supported. When I do those 2 things, it feels like the laying back action is more "elongated" somehow, and the compression that could happen in the lower vert. doesn't happen so quickly. Then, I tend to feel the "stretch" in the frontal hip area/flexors..."
Absolutely, Quinn, there is a timing and balance that makes it work. For one thing, you have to be able to relax the psoas, otherwise you'll get a lot of tension in the neck. And for me, it's a sensation of lifting through the top of the head, which creates space between the vertebrae, and elongation of the spine.
One thing I had to learn was not to drop my head back. I did that for the longest time, thinking it was getting me deeper into a layback, but it don't work that way! :-) -
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 10:06 PMYes, the "lifting through the top of the head"....exactly!
I get this feeling, and it seems to be related quite closely to how my yoga teacher talks about many of our poses....Triangle, for example: the idea being that the legs are anchored, yet there's a power to them, that allows the spine to lift straight up and out of the hips, and *then* extend out.....it all sorta clicks when I think about it like that!!! ;)
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 10:16 PMThat's why I think Yoga goes hand in hand with Bellydance. The postures are similar, and a lot of the poses work to enhance our movements.
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 9:46 PMPrincipessa ZiLLicia brings up a good point.
Not everyone can go to table, nor should they try. I prefer to think that Laybacks should be a beautiful element you are adding to your dance, rather than an Olympic test to show off how far down you can go. It isn't about tricks, it should be about beauty in dance.
Carolena made me feel real good in the General Skills when she explained that not all moves work for everybody. The layback is the big one. Some people are flexible in their spines and some are not. Stretching will help, but everyone has a limit. She showed us how she could sit between her legs, no problem. Then Megha showed she did not have the same flexibility and couldn't sit the same way comfortably.
Wendy, here is my question though: If you know you can't do deep laybacks, how do you deal with this when you are all improvving? Do you do lesser ones? Do you avoid them altogether? Or do you all just do what you can and show the integrity of the move without everyone being at the same level of layback? -
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Re: Laybacks
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 9:53 PM"Wendy, here is my question though: If you know you can't do deep laybacks, how do you deal with this when you are all improvving? Do you do lesser ones? Do you avoid them altogether? Or do you all just do what you can and show the integrity of the move without everyone being at the same level of layback?"
I do what I can and keep the integrity of the layback. I try to get the most out my arm extension, and keep my head aligned with my spine, and go for as much of a lift in my ribcage as I can get.
I would never go into a layback while I'm leading, because I don't get the depth that some of the other gals in the troupe can get, but I have been in a follow position when the leader has gone into a layback, and I just do the best I can. Since I'm in a follow position, it works with the sightlines if I don't go down as low as the leader. At least if I'm in the farthest back position.
Ideally, if the leader knows their dance partners are limited in laybacks, they wouldn't do it, but sometimes you just get carried away by the music.
That goes for any specialty move, really.
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Re: Laybacks
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 12:59 PMJust thought I'd add some yoga links to the already helpful discussion:
Article on opening up the chest area - including precautions and prep
www.yogajournal.com/basics/2087
Backbend Poses
www.yogajournal.com/poses/fi...backbends -
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Re: Laybacks
Fri, June 6, 2008 - 10:06 AMI have terrible back and joint problems - always have since I was a child - so I really struggle with many aspects of bellydance such as floorwork and laybacks. Do you guys think Yoga would help? I had no idea it was so closely linked with dance lol. I always thought it was just stretching exercises. -
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Re: Laybacks
Sat, June 7, 2008 - 10:41 AMIt might be worth a try. Strength and flexibility are a big help to dance, and yoga increases both. I don't do much yoga myself (I am lazy) but I know people who do who find yoga stretches better on their joints and more helpful than, say, conventional sports stretches. -
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Re: Laybacks
Sat, June 7, 2008 - 7:58 PMYoga can help improve your dance, but in the end, you ALWAYS have to listen to your body and respect its limits. That's not to say you shouldn't do certain things, but you might have to accept that there are going to be things like laybacks and floorwork that aren't for everyone. If that turns out to be the case, look for other strengths.
And remember to HAVE FUN and don't take yourself too seriously! :-) -
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Re: Laybacks
Tue, June 10, 2008 - 4:36 AMthanks :) I'll see if I can find a yoga class here. I know there's a lady in my town that does yoga BD fusion but last time I saw them at a Hafla they were dancing with sticks which I thought was a little odd and put me off. -
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Re: Laybacks
Thu, July 17, 2008 - 7:47 PMThanks Sandi 4 those links...I haven't done a yoga class in awhile & have forgottten many of those!!!!
"It isn't about tricks, it should be about beauty in dance." ......................
This is ALWAYS a good reminder................ahhhh, thank you!!!!
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