ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

topic posted Thu, December 11, 2008 - 8:46 AM by  Salome
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I have been thinking about doing one of these for awhile. My dance partner and I have been teaching ITS for about a year now. It is amazing how off the perceptions of Tribal is in some of these new students. I want to make out a handout to give new students to let them know up front the requirements and expectations of ITS bellydance...in a humerous way of course.

So from other teachers and students of ITS/ ATS bellydance what do you wish you could tell new students..or what things did you realize after you got into it that you wish you could warn people about.

A few of my examples..

* You WILL NOT be able to dance like Rachel Brice after 8 weeks of class.
* ITS / ATS is not Tribal Fusion but the foudation of Tribal Fusion.
* Class becomes more of a lifestyle instead of coming to class once a week to learn a choreography and moving on.
* This is not a style to take just for exercise..this is a style to take to learn how to perform it.
* We will work on a single move for a month if we have to..over and over and over.
* You will have to get used to looking at, touching, depending on, and trusting your fellow dancers. There will be plenty of accidental boob
brushes and getting attached to each other because of costuming..get used to it.
* We will ALWAYS wear pants under skirts!!!!
* Regular class attendance is a MUST. We will teach a new move while your gone and throw it out at you during an improv performance to
make you realize you should of been in class.
* One must work their way up into a performing troupe. Its not a bad thing to be in the chorus. We all have to start somewhere.
* You will be expected to spend time will your sister dancers outside the studio for costume making and shopping, seeing other shows,
video watching and yes..just hangin out and shooting the shit. The bonding times with fellow dancers is just as important as the class
training.
*This style IS NOT for everyone..just because your a great cabaret dancer does not mean that tribal is for you..nor does it mean that you will
be better than a non dancer trying tribal as their first style of bellydance.
*Do not be frustrated if it takes your body 6 months to learn a move in your muscle memory and others may only take a few weeks.
Everyone learns at their own pace.
* Every dancer will need to lead at some point or the other...or stay in the chorus.
* We will be hand and arm nazis, and we will make a big deal about the direction or tightness of your floreo and arm movements
because they are a strong cues in many moves.
* Forget everything you learned in Cabaret class, we will have to untrain you and start over. ITS / ATS is not just a cooler version of
cabaret..its a completely different style of bellydance with different rules and foundations.
* We are not bossy..we just know how its suppose to look.

These are a few of my pet peeves that I would like to warn them about ahead of time....would love to hear some others I am completely forgetting about.




posted by:
Salome
Kansas
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  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Thu, December 11, 2008 - 9:21 AM
    wow this is great! I am going to use this for my classes! You touched on just about all the basis! i always say Rachel is gumby and you are not. Also stress the fact that she has trained her lower belly muscles for many years to hold her up when she bends back - stressing that no one should ever bend back onto there spine!
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Thu, December 11, 2008 - 9:24 AM
    Oh, yeah, SNAP!
    A coin bra and some tassels do not a tribal dancer make...
    No amount of costuming will hide the fact that you haven't practiced
    Don't be surprised when the leader does something unexpected/unrehearsed- JUST FOLLOW HER.
    Yoga classes are nearly essential for strength and flexibility.
    More is More in the makeup dept.
    Practice in your costume before performing the first time (Southern Exposure!).
    Yes, the music is slow/repetitive/hypnotic/instrumental/weird...deal with it please.
    You are going to suck suck suck at some things...but it will get better!
    Your husband/partner/kids/wife/doggies will have to adjust to your dance schedule/spending habits!
    Be prepared to spend money on gear, lessons, workshops, etc. Lots of money.

    XOXOXO
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Thu, December 11, 2008 - 9:34 AM
    I think your intentions are great but while you think this is humorous, to me it comes across as a arrogant and exclusive. I might suggest a writing style that's more respectful to someone who's willing to try something new. I think it's OK if a new student's motivation is just to get a workout, or wanting to emulate a famous dancer, or to try something they've never done before that sounds "fun." I'd encourage you to be more open, as you'll never know who your lifers will be in the first meeting/class. It's unrealistic to think that your students will all share your commitment and vision - not everyone who comes through the door is going to commit to the lifestyle or even make it back for a 2nd class. Those that want to instantly transform into Rachel Brice (but aren't willing to work hard) won't last long, but they just might be the one that gets bitten by the bug and has a change in their motivations and work ethic.

    I think it's a great idea to have a written "code" that reminds people that this is not a solo dance and they can't lead all the time and they should be happy just to be in chorus for the whole gig/rehearsal if that's what it takes, along with many of the other topics you mention. But the list also goes into a lot of minutia that might scare a beginner away. Some of the concepts are more advanced and might be better suited to come up over time, rather than a proclamation to be declared before someone tries a class for the first time. It's going to take a little time to clear up a newer dancer's misperceptions as they learn more about the dance and the improv concept from your example and instruction.

    My favorite line from Carolena's Tribal Code is about how it's your primary job to make your dance sisters look (and feel) good, no matter the situation.
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Thu, December 11, 2008 - 10:01 AM
      Hey Pacifica, I do understand where you are coming from. And in the beginning we were very open to "come try out this new style, its for everyone." type of beginning ITS classes. We quickly learned that it is not for everyone...I feel that it was a disservice to some of the students. What happens more than not is unsuspecting new students tend to get frustrated and go into shock because it is not what they expected. They expect it to be something that is easy or choreographed, something that can be learned if a few weeks. This style takes months even years to get a grasp of. Why shouldn't you let people know that up front???

      What I do want to do in the beginning is attract the ones that do want to commit to the lifestyle of it. I don't want to waste time and the other students time with people that just want to exercise or because it sounds fun to try in passing. There are other styles of bellydance classes for that. As a teacher you can spot the new students that will be successful in it, but the commitment is what will make or break a dancer when it comes to ITS.

      Nothing is more frustrating than to devote so much time into a new dancer with the drills and combos and develop their muscle memory and then have them not commit to what it takes to be a good ATS / ITS dancer. This is a style that has to be a group thing..and if the level of commitment is not there then how is that fair to the other dancers that are there all the time and working together. So much time can be wasted getting the occasional tribal dancer caught up to the speed of the commited ones.

      Thats why there are other classes to choose from. Not saying that you can't be a bellydancer if you don't have the committment..but to be a good ITS dancer YOU HAVE to have that commitment.

      And no I don't expect everyone that comes through the door to have the same level of commitment or vision..but I do expect that once they enter that door that they will understand tthat that is what we are asking for in order to learn this style sucessfully.

      And of course I wouldn't nail them on this as soon as their first class but, they have to know what to expect if it is something they want to learn. These responses are in fun and many of them may not ever be seen by new students. Its great to hear what others have to say and what they have realized learning this style.

      .
      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

        Thu, December 11, 2008 - 10:11 AM
        I have to agree with Pacifica. I could see having a code of conduct with dancers who are of a certain level and are ready to perform, but for newer students, this could really put them off.

        And I take exception to the statement that it's not something to be taken just as exercise. At FatChance, we have a LOT of people who just take levels 1 and 2 for fun and exercise. By excluding those people, you miss out not only on income, but on people who are a great addition to class-people with a great and enthusiastic attitude.

        The people for whom these dance forms are not appropriate will weed themselves out early on, anyway. Besides that, generally the people who these rules are aimed at are not going to think it applies to them, anyway. Often the problem children don't know they're a problem.
        • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

          Thu, December 11, 2008 - 10:45 AM
          I have to agree with salome, but it seems like she is using her classes as more of a training program to get performers, which is perfectly acceptable, its just a class with a different intention. that is pretty much the way we run things too.
          • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

            Thu, December 11, 2008 - 11:03 AM
            ah..thats it..a Performance Training Program..thats exactly it!! Its not a "class" as much as a Performance Training Program.

            I mean isn't that what we strive to do in ITS/ ATS..perform with our fellow dancers?? Isn't that the purpose of it being the whole improv leading aspect. So to take the classes to just learn the moves and never apply it in a performance with fellow dancers is like giving someone a kite with no string or wind to make it move and control it. To me (I know not others) but it would be such a waste to just learn the moves for exercise and not take it any further than that...there are so many more options and styles to use for exercise.

            Thanks for debating with me you all', its been a slow day at work, it good to hear how people look at the purpose of classes in this style of bellydance. Though I didn't realize this would be the direction the thread went. But it gave me more self awareness that the direction and the focus of MY classes are to be Performance Training Classes. Which in turn a lot of what I am warning new students about would make sense.
            • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

              Thu, December 11, 2008 - 11:39 AM
              "I mean isn't that what we strive to do in ITS/ ATS..perform with our fellow dancers?? Isn't that the purpose of it being the whole improv leading aspect. So to take the classes to just learn the moves and never apply it in a performance with fellow dancers is like giving someone a kite with no string or wind to make it move and control it. To me (I know not others) but it would be such a waste to just learn the moves for exercise and not take it any further than that...there are so many more options and styles to use for exercise. "

              Sorry, but while that may be YOUR reason for doing it, this is not everyone's motivation. Some do it for exercise, a chance to get in their bodies. Some do it just to be in a class and have social connection in a safe and comfortable space, which tribal is great at creating with the right teacher nurturing that environment. Some do it to dance socially, and love dance parties to just jam (not perform, but jam). And then the final subsection is people who do it specifically to perform, and I can't say this is the largest section in my experience. And more than that, even among those who might wish to perform, not all of them will reach that level in their dancing--performance is not an automatic point you reach after X number of years or knowing X number of moves. It is a collection of other factors of skill, commitment, personality, physical ability, ability to learn and retain information swiftly, etc which defines a performer. Not just desire.

              Ultimately, I thought this list was intended as a joke, and it made me chuckle a little. But if you are seriously considering handing this out to new dancers, I would caution against it. While it sounds funny to teachers/experienced dancers, it would really come across as a bit elitist and condescending to dancers just coming into the dance. It doesn't leave a lot of room for people to discover things for themselves, or to evolve from one kind of dancer (a less serious, "for exercise" student) into another (a seriously committed professional). Not everyone walks into a dance class with a firm goal of being a performer. Some just want to test the waters, to play, to pass the time. Some of them evolve into something else. Some will always be content there. There is room for both in class.

              As others have said, people tend to weed themselves out over time. As a teacher and director, you decide to create the environment and set the goals and guide the energy of your class. When people decide if that feels right or wrong for them, they will go with the flow or get out of the boat. In my opinion, you don't need to spell it out quite this much, as there are better ways to get it across just in teaching and performing and setting the example.
              • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                Thu, December 11, 2008 - 11:55 AM
                Damn, Shay beat me to this comment! :)

                I don't strive to make performers when I teach. I strive to make dancers.

                I have made an effort in my classes to NOT use words that imply that learning this form has performance as a reward at the end. I no longer say "turn to the audience" because it reinforces the idea that I am training performers. And I'm not. I'm training dancers.

                I don't know about anyone else here, but when I turn music on in my house, ain't no show going on... I'm just dancing and enjoying movement.

                Learn to dance so that you can DANCE. One doesn't have to be on a stage to do ATS/ITS. When I first learned to dance in the SCA, we were simply dancing around fires and enjoying each other's company and skills as dancers. There was no show.

                We weren't consciously performing for anyone who happened to walk by and see us.

                If you are planning on having a performance troupe, then apply your list to the troupe. Or to people who want to train to be in the troupe. But I can see it scaring people off if they're just starting out. And ATS already has a gazillion rules to remember. :)
                • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                  Sat, December 13, 2008 - 6:15 AM
                  I agree. This list seems more directed towards a troupe than a group of new dancers. I know that if this had been presented to me at the beginning of classes, I would have been turned off of the dance, thinking already that I wasn't 'committed' or 'hard core' enough. The thing I love about the ATS-style dancing that I'm quite new to is that it's teaching me to dance in a LESS formal way, to just be able to get together with a group of fellow dancers and DANCE, not worrying about choreography. I'm not saying it's any easier, I'm definitely finding out exactly how hard it is, despite how easy it looks, but I'm being encouraged by a wonderful teacher in a very positive way and that's building my love for the dance.
              • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                Thu, December 11, 2008 - 12:25 PM
                Hey Shay :0).."waving"..

                Yes, I do want to stress that this not to say that ALL ATS/ ITS classes are to be formed or based this way. Nor should any studio have all their classes this way by any means. Our studio has a lot of classes that are open to the students that don't want to take belly dance as a lifestyle.

                I am just focusing on THIS style alone. Its just how I want to base MY classes. We are very performance driven, we have a "season' locally from April to October that we perform a lot at local Farmers Markets for an hour at a time per week a few times a month, on top of many weekend performances. Much of our classes during that time are focused on preparing for those performances and training with one another on new combos, new moves, formations, etc. as well as drilling and tightening up the standard moves. And its a great way to get the committed beginners feet wet by having them in the chorus. That said. For those that do not want to perform (of which I have not had any in my classes - my problem is they want to perform too early) I am afraid would feel left out of the over all experiance of what ITS is.

                This list IS intended to be light hearted..as I mentioned most of these would never cross the hands of a new student..my old student would get it drilled into them though :0)

                I actually am trying to avoid the whole less serious, just for exercise, or pass the time students actually...may it be wrong or right. Its just how I want to structure my classes. And it seems to be that sometimes you do have to spell it out for them. Its the ones that don't understand even when warned why they cant perform in the show when they haven't bothered to be in a class for over a month. It actually does mess up the dynamics of a class when a fellow dancer is not commited and doesn't take it seriously. Its a growing process together as a group, not as a group and a few showing up every now and then when they decide they are bored.

                • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                  Thu, December 11, 2008 - 12:44 PM
                  Hey Salome *waving back*

                  I guess the point is that you may be closing doors to some of the best dancers you will ever have in your performances if you try to "avoid" dancers who don't have performing as a firm goal from the outset. Some of the best members of inFusion have been dancers who came in just for the fun of it, and wouldn't even have auditioned if we hadn't pushed them. Now they are incredibly talented, committed, humble, joyful, fabulous dance sisters! If I had locked them out of my classes from day one by demanding they come in with the firm goal of performing, I would not have the joy and honor or dancing with them today. I certainly did NOT walk into my first bellydance class with the goal of performing (let alone teaching!). It was something that came very gradually over a long period of time, and the desire grew out of having incredibly encouraging teachers who made me feel like whatever I wanted to bring to the dance, and whatever I wanted to get out of it, was up to me, and they would help me. And here I am today, thanks to teachers with those open and nurturing attitudes.

                  I feel like the list of demands you have listed (and I mean demands in the way of "commitments") make a lot of assumptions about what mindset one must come into the dance with on the first day in order to be a strong dancer. It just doesn't work that way.

                  Additionally, it sounds like you are trying to build a professional, polished dance group out of students in class. I find that class is a very different focus than rehearsal for performance. Perhaps it would benefit you to separate out a troupe rehearsal, complete with a troupe charter which outlines expectations including attendance requirements in order to perform. That would allow you to weed out those who are less committed by only inviting into the troupe/rehearsal time those who adhere to the charter expectations, and allow the dancers to focus on the specific factors surround the performances being prepared for. And the class can be a time devoted entirely to technique.
                • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                  Thu, December 11, 2008 - 12:49 PM
                  Many of my reactions to the initial post have been voiced by others already, but I'd like to add a couple of things. There were many things in that list that made say, "hell, yeah!" -- for instance, anything relating to preconceptions or expectations about how quickly you'll be able to grasp these concepts, how well you'll be able to dance these moves (whether you've been a dancer in another style for years or have never danced a step in your life until now), etc.

                  But like others, there were things in there that if I'd read them as a new student, I would have immediately found another studio or possibly been scared off of trying ATS altogether, and I think that's unfortunate. Until I started learning ATS a bit over a year ago I had NEVER danced ever. I took up classes because I thought belly dance would be interesting to try -- I had absolutely no desire at the time to perform and didn't even know that I'd stick with it. But here I am over a year later, dancing in my instructor's troupe and performing regularly and working hard at being a better dancer.

                  As someone who's just started teaching ATS, I don't think it's a waste of time at all to teach someone ATS who may never perform or dance outside of your one class a week ever. If they're paying you for instruction and you're giving them the instruction they're paying for, where's the waste of time?

                  Not only that, but as someone who has been performing with many of the same fellow students and troupe members for the last year, I find it quite refreshing to dance with new people -- it forces you to pay more attention to how other bodies will cue moves, to read the subtleties of another person's body language, and that's quite informative and in my opinion makes you better at reading cues (or sometimes the lack thereof in new students!). It also forces you to adopt some patience as new people learn to cue moves and you have to gently guide them through the process by leading the dance yourself and working through their mistakes in a supportive way. These are all things that I feel make me a better dancer as they happen.

                  It's also rewarding in its own right to watch people who come to a class completely new and learn the moves. I taught my first Level 1 series this winter and my class is a small group of students who've never danced before. They do the typical newbie thing of getting down on themselves ("Ugh, I can't do this move!") and apologizing all over the place. The Egyptian Basic Half Turn always seems to trip them up and surprise them no matter how many times I gently walk them through it. But one night around week 4 I drilled them and they were zilling on the beat, doing the moves, and then they ALL caught the cue and ALL did it SO well. I wanted to screech with happiness and hug them all! It was my first glowy teacher moment and I went home with my chest all puffed up.

                  I feel that if my students saw some of the things on that list I'd have missed out on such a beautiful moment. But that said, yes, anything we can do to let new students know that they shouldn't expect to be able to dance like a master is a wonderful thing. My students always says, "well, it looks so EASY when you do it!" To which I always reply, "and I was just as new at this as you are once. It just takes work."
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                    Thu, December 11, 2008 - 1:35 PM
                    We actually do have two classes, really three. First we have a Tribal basics class for beginners. In that class you will learn the basic moves of ITS, posturing, cueing, formations, chorus work..history..tribal education and costuming..etc. In order to move up to the performance class you have to pass a test showing that you understand the basic moves, can recognise them from the cues and are able to give cues as well. We by no means require perfection in exectuting the moves..that will come with time and with additional training.

                    the class to move up to after that is a technique class where we focus on firming up the basic moves and expanding on them, introducing new moves and combos and working on partner passes and formation changes. After that class is the troupe class where we improv and apply the movements and combos into an improv practice, and then we can see what moves we need to focus on and clean up.

                    We require anyone in the troupe to also be in the technique class. Actually in our classes the student come in wanting to perform. Its seeing us perform together that brings them in. What has happened is people want to perform so bad that they commit to the beginning classes enough to pass the test and then once in the technique and performance classes they decide that since they are in there they don't have to show up all the time anymore. The mistake I made in the beginning is that I didn't make them aware of how much work and time goes into this in order to perform. They don't realize the hard work and ongoing drilling and commitment it takes to work as a group together. It doesn't stop once you know the basics. Thats why I feel if they were made aware of this more in the beginner classes then they will know what they are getting into.

                    I am sorry but you can practice moves and techniques in class until your face is blue but unless you apply it in an improv situation in a performance with your fellow dancers you are not getting an important meaning of what ITS is. Its being able to dance with your fellow dancers and be able to read each other and have them read you and to be able to create a dance onstage. The BEST practices we have had with our students are the ones where we perform casually in the public. Because bodies swirling around and moving in and out of formations and going different speeds in front of an audiance is not the same as practicing in the studio in a class setting. Things change once you hit the stage as compared to a classroom. Its the best way to learn how to go with the flow and follow people even if they are making mistakes and learning how to think on the spot.


                    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                      Thu, December 11, 2008 - 1:43 PM
                      I think maybe you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying technique is only individual moves. In technique I am also including group improvisational concepts. In our Level 3 class, we dance as a group in many ways, including mock performance situations. There are also haflas, dance parties, and salons where students can cut their teeth on performance technique without being in a pro troupe with all that demands.
                    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                      Thu, December 11, 2008 - 2:19 PM
                      "I am sorry but you can practice moves and techniques in class until your face is blue but unless you apply it in an improv situation in a performance with your fellow dancers you are not getting an important meaning of what ITS is. Its being able to dance with your fellow dancers and be able to read each other and have them read you and to be able to create a dance onstage."

                      Sure, I totally hear you. But in the ATS classes I take the students are always put into formations and they dance to a whole song with the moves they've learned that night as well as any previous moves they've been learning in the course. This happens in every class. In this way they do get the benefits of dancing with each other, reading each other's cues, and understanding the improv nature of the dance without having to be on stage in front of an entire audience. So in that way I do think they get an understanding of one of the most important principles of ATS while just being a student who isn't necessarily interested in performing.
                      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                        Thu, December 11, 2008 - 2:23 PM
                        Also, you mentioned "...be able to read each other and have them read you and to be able to create a dance onstage." I agree with you right up to the "onstage" part. If you're building a performance troupe, then absolutely, and it sounds like that's more your focus.

                        But I think to a lot of people and to a lot of prospective students, ATS is about creating a dance together, but not necessarily on stage. Hell, how many times have you been dancing with your fellow dancers and totally even FORGOT there's anyone watching you? You're just grooving on the vibe, totally feeling that connection with everyone. I worry that by being too stringent about the performance aspect -- again, unless your goal is to only work with performance-minded students -- people interested in just getting that cool vibe could miss out.
                        • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                          Thu, December 11, 2008 - 2:34 PM
                          Okay, a third post in a row, because I like the reflection Salome's post has given me about taking classes, teaching classes, what I get out of them, and what I hope to get out of them. :)

                          I think what I really only take issue with in the initial post is this:

                          "One must work their way up into a performing troupe. Its not a bad thing to be in the chorus. We all have to start somewhere."

                          Salome, it sounds like you believe that only performance situations can truly give you an understanding of what ATS is, and I guess I gotta respectfully disagree with ya. :)

                          Let's say a new round of classes has started. You've got a room full of people who don't know each other. They're shy, they don't know how to dance, they can't look at each other, they constantly criticize their own lack of skill and they apologize for not being able to do the movements. They're not performers; they're clearly there because they saw an ad and thought it would be nice to get out of the house on Tuesday nights, or their friend took them to a belly dance performance and they thought it looked cool, or they figured this would be a fun way to work out.

                          Then slowly, over the weeks, as they come to their one class, they talk to each other. They start to bond a little with their fellow students. They do the moves but they're so, so stilted and stiff and awkward. But you get them into formations and you have them dance, and at first they can't make any eye contact so they aren't looking at each other so they're completely missing cues. But hey, they're there and they show up again the next week, and the week after that.

                          Then after a while, because this group of strangers dances together at least once a week they start to talk, and as you impress upon them the need for eye contact they start doing it. And eventually you have them change the lead and wow! They're looking at each other and SMILING. They're enjoying themselves! And then you see them cue a move and they see everyone followed it, and you see them smile as they think, hey, I got it right this time.

                          After a while you've got students who may be a far, far cry from performance-capable, but they're doing the moves, they're bonding with the other people they're dancing with regularly, and they're smiling and having fun and making at least the beginnings of that connection we all thrive on when we turn around and we're looking at each other and totally in sync.

                          I feel like they can get there without having to go through public performances to do that, and I feel that while it may not be as powerful as it is for those of us that perform, it's an amazing transition to watch in its own right, and it's certainly an experience that's probably worth what they're paying for for class.
                          • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                            Thu, December 11, 2008 - 3:19 PM
                            Ok..how did this thread go into a place to where I feel like I am having to defend my perspective of how I (not everyone as a general rule) but myself... would like the focus of my classes to be? I have made it clear that I am training students for performing and I want them to be aware of this when joining. There are always opportunities to perform and share the art with the outside world. Studio Shows, Renaissance Faires, Farmers Markets, MECDA events, busking, haflas...etc..etc..etc. Belly dance is a performing art to be shared.

                            "Salome, it sounds like you believe that only performance situations can truly give you an understanding of what ATS is, and I guess I gotta respectfully disagree with ya. :) "

                            I don't believe that ONLY performances give a perspective of what ITS / ATS is...but it is a big part of it..if not, why are there so many freaking shows, festivals, haflas, and performances going on all the time? Dancers who has performed ATS/ ITS ON STAGE has to admit that there is a certain type of energy that is created by performing together on stage or for an audiance situation that is not the same with a choreography. It is NOT the same as improving in class. And yes I completely agree as you mentioned below..how beautiful it is when women learn to trust each other and lead and follow and look at each other in the eye...but why keep it in the studio and not share it with others once that is established? Nowhere have I said in any of this that it is ONLY for the audiance..it for the experiance of that feeling of dancing WITH each other and FOR each other and creating together. Often times in the excitement and trust that happens during improv performances new moves and combos have been formed out of just trusting someone and following, we have brought some back to class to impliment them into our vocabulary.

                            I think this thread kind of went off the path a bit. I don't have issues or problems with students that don't want to perform. That is not something I ever have to deal with, its completely the opposite. I think we are beating that dead horse to the ground with that issue. The problem I have is EVERY new student is wanting to perform without realizing what it takes to become a performer. What level of commitment and dedication it takes in this style to learn it and execute it so others can follow. That this style cannot be learned overnight and it takes effort and showing up to class on a very regular basis.


                            • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                              Thu, December 11, 2008 - 3:48 PM
                              Another thought then:
                              Have you considered that the way you are teaching and structuring your class as a performance focus is drawing in students who want to perform NOW and don't have the full respect for the art form to slow down and really dig into the material?

                              As I said, some of my best and most serious and committed performers were the ones who came into my class without any intention to be serious and committed. And then there are the student who come in on their very first class and ask when they get to perform...and then disappear before 6 weeks are up because they thought it would be easy.

                              If you are encouraging and nurturing the overeager 'we really want to perform' students because you think those who come in with the single-minded intention to perform is what makes a committed dancer in the long run, and discouraging the "just for exercise" students because you think they won't end up being interested or committed....then you are possibly shooting yourself in the foot. Your class is full of overeager performers because your entire attitude toward the dance, as you have expressed it in this thread, is a focus on performing only. That tends to create an atmosphere which attracts overeager "want it now" kind of students. Whereas I find those who are willing and interested in taking it slow, and aren't so completely focused on "I MUST GET ON STAGE" are really what you need to be seeking and nurturing...and those are more often in the guise of students who don't necessarily come in with the desire to perform in the first place. From my perspective, you are coming at this backwards, and that may be why you have the frustratingly overeager, disrespectful students and none of the "I know this will take time and effort, I am committed to putting in that time and effort, however long that will be."

                              I am not trying to make you defend your position, I promise. Only trying to share my perspective from my end, having taught for going on 8 years. I enjoy a good discussion and debate, and I am appreciating hearing your experiences as you see them and sharing mine in return.
                            • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                              Mon, December 22, 2008 - 9:12 PM
                              this might actually be a curriculum development/flow problem.

                              you say "you have to work yourself up to being a performer"
                              BUT - you also say you move people into a performance class after beginning level and 1 test.

                              your dancers may be being promoted to soon, and getting mixed messages.

                              you could restructure your curriculum so that after beginning level, there's an "intermediate" level that requires a "performing" class that meets 1x/week and runs cues and formations and practices lead/follow, and an intermediate technique class 1x/week. give them a monthly hafla, or a day at the farmers market to test out performing, but make it voluntary. mark their performance in that class, and give a time limit on how long you have to be in that before putting them into a "troupe" class. (i.e., you must be at the intermediate level for 6 months before you move into the performing troupe level.)
                              this gives those dancers who dont want to be in the "troupe" classes - with all the commitments that entails - an opportunity to train at a higher level, without frustrating you and the rest of the troupe members by not committing to performing and training at the high*est* level.

                              also, contracts are great.
                              my student troupe has a contract that clearly details what's expected of them, how often they're expected to come to class, how many rehearsals they're allowed to miss, what constitutes an "emergency" absence, etc. in that troupe, i am training professionals - these girls are hand picked intermediate/advanced students who i see as being on their way to "professional" dance careers. because i'm trying to train them to be professionals, i treat them like a professional director would, and i have something they have signed to point to if something goes wrong.
                              it's totally great to train professional performers, but if you're training them to be professional, treat them like professionals, with all that entails. be clear on what you want, be clear on what the consequences are if they cant deliver those things, and be prepared for them to leave - either when they cant commit, or when they've gotten all they can/need/want from the troupe and are ready to become "full" professionals and not advanced/performing students.

                              a student troupe is a great way to impart some valuable professional skills to your more advanced students, and gear them up for "the real world" of dance - but if that's your goal, you need to set professional level expectations, and enforce them. otherwise, you're not doing them any favors.

      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

        Thu, December 11, 2008 - 10:21 AM
        oF COURSE I'm taking it all with a grain of salt--- it was funny ya`ll!!!!
        • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

          Thu, December 11, 2008 - 11:51 AM
          Joy, I get that it was intended to be funny, but it does also open up a reaction from people, and I think it's created a good discussion. We're all entitled to our opinions. :-)
          • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

            Thu, December 11, 2008 - 11:55 AM
            One last thing-if you do have a group of students who have an eye toward performing, or being in your troupe, from the time they do their first performance with your group, they should be made aware that there is a code of conduct. When people start gaining the desire to perform, that's when they need to know that there are a certain amount of expectations as to how they behave, their commitment level, etc.

            Of course, we all occasionally get that one person who, after their first class, asks when they can perform, be in the troupe, etc. In that case, I think it's appropriate to let them know what's expected of someone who takes that road!
          • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

            Thu, December 11, 2008 - 12:38 PM
            Oh beautiful Wendy-- I never said anyone isnt entitled to opinions!
            Sorry-- I laughed a very welcome giggle while reading it, and yes I agree that I wouldnt really want to give it to new students--but those considering a troupe effort-- you're darn tootin'!
      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

        Thu, December 11, 2008 - 2:50 PM
        I'm in the "the list sound elitest" crowd.

        <<What I do want to do in the beginning is attract the ones that do want to commit to the lifestyle of it. I don't want to waste time and the other students time with people that just want to exercise or because it sounds fun to try in passing. There are other styles of bellydance classes for that. As a teacher you can spot the new students that will be successful in it, but the commitment is what will make or break a dancer when it comes to ITS.

        Nothing is more frustrating than to devote so much time into a new dancer with the drills and combos and develop their muscle memory and then have them not commit to what it takes to be a good ATS / ITS dancer. >>

        So, the problem isn't that your students are confused by what they are getting into, but that you only want students who are committed enough to be "worth your time". As much as this rubs me the wrong way, I can understand that--it is your class. But there are better ways to go about it. What not just have auditions and a signed commitment to take your class?

        As for all the "unsuspecting" students--the only way they are going to learn if they have the interest and commitment in ATS/ITS is to try it. and that means to take the class. For example, we had a big problem at my old college barn of students signing up for riding, thus blocking out other students, and then discovering a few weeks in that they didn't like the class and they just stopped showing up or stopped caring. The college's answer was to have "pre-sign up" class where we experienced riders explained exactly how much time and effort would be involved, and then put everyone up on a horse and led them around to see if they liked it. The result? Absolutely nothing. The students only discovered exactly what it meant after living with it for weeks, and no amount of well-intentioned discussions could change that.
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Sat, March 14, 2009 - 2:25 AM
      yeah i agree- though it might just be because everything sounds bitchy if you type it.
      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

        Wed, March 18, 2009 - 12:40 PM
        This has actually been a very helpful thread for me. We are actually restructuring our classes as advised in some of these comments. We are making our beginning basics class a NON performing class. Takes the pressure and expectatons off of both the student and us as teachers.

        It will be the dancers choice if they decide to perform by testing on the understanding of basic vocabulary moves and cues and formations. Then they will go onto another class where we train them to perform. Usually by then when the rules are given and discussed it doesn't come off so "bitchy" as people on here are translating from it. By then they are aware of what they are getting themselves into. And the pressure is off of us trying to make all our students performance ready.
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Thu, December 11, 2008 - 10:07 AM
    You have some really good points and they are valid, but i think you also may have read too much into it. It seems to me that she only combined a list of all the misconceptions about ATS with students. These are the same issues many teachers deal with and it was nice for me to see them combined into one list as I have also delt with these issues. I dont think anyone here was in any way trying to be arragant. I think forums like these are wonderful places for teacher and students to discuss issues in constructive ways. If there was any humerousness about it, it would only be in the fact that it is amazing how much I relate and agree with what Salome has listed. There is no way this is funny when it comes to the students themselves. Many do work hard at dance but there are alot of misconceptions when they do start or after some time.

    I myself have experienced just lately a student quantifying my classes based on how many moves she learns a week verses actually practicing and learning them properly and in formations. So ya, I can relate.
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Thu, December 11, 2008 - 11:33 AM
    Thanks for this - as a very beginning belly dancer trying to make the (to me huge!) transition from fun introductory classes to a class with ambitions of becoming a performance troupe, the advice is very apt and timely. However I think had I been told it at the start of my fun classes, before I was sure whether or not it was something I wanted/was able to commit to, it might have sent me fleeing. I found there is a place for both types of classes (fun "taster" classes and performance-aimed), and it is definitely helpful when teachers clearly state their personal expectations of their new students right at the start. Great topic!
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Thu, December 11, 2008 - 3:14 PM
      I thought Salome's post was funny, I needed it today... but the discussions are good, very interesting to see what this stirs up.
      I'm a student too, and agree with nearly everything she says....and Salome is my teacher. I don't get a feeling from her (and NEVER have) that she is coming from an elitist place. This to "perform" this kind of dance does take commitment, for sure, but its fun to dance in class and at parties and wherever, and we do that a lot, too.

      I must say that my teachers continually support and inspire me and the other dancers. They're tough, but in a good and caring way.
      And, by the way, who of us hasn't had a ballet teacher as a little girl/boy who wasn't a complete commandante? I remember mine used to swat us on the butts with a tympani mallet. And don't even think of wearing anything but pink tights. Or chewing gum in class.
      She was far more intimidating and terrifying than Salome is, even on her worst day!
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Thu, December 11, 2008 - 5:31 PM
    wow, thats alot of different outlooks and yet similar. I just will say that I just want to have fun. I like to teach beginning and intermediate and not worry about whether they will perform or not. When you get more advanced dancers then almost all of them want to perform. If they do then great, I dont have any expectations of performance requirements. I just like to have fun. If they are a serious student then they will stay and work hard and work their way up. If not, then we probibly just made a nice new friend.

    I will say though it is almost always predictable when I get a student that comes in and says she only wants to learn to dance for her husband/boyfriend, they never last, they see the commitment and work it takes to become a good dancer and they are out. You know when you get the dancers that do it for themselves, they are the best students and become great dancers!
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Thu, December 11, 2008 - 7:56 PM
      I think anyone who has ever taught could strongly relate to the list. I thought it was humorous as well and I can certainly respect the initial poster's concerns.

      But...I think Shay is spot on with her assessment. Perhaps all of us who experience this should take time to step back and reassess. Perhaps we do set up environments where the expectations are to eventually perform...sometimes without even realizing it. But...if this is the intention, as in Salome's case, then I think this does need to be addressed with the students, not just for the Instructor's sake but for the sake of the students.

      Do I think a diamond in the rough will be lost here and there...yes...but a greater disservice will have been done if expectations are not clearly laid out early on. I think she is being honest in expressing a preference for a more serious type of student. To deviate would force an unpleasant environment in a classroom. Some Instructors want to lay the foundation and hold hands...others want a serious, structured, military style boot camp. Neither is wrong as long as the Instructor knows where they fit best and they set expectations from the start. Perhaps...a gentler approach initially but..if the troupe is going to be run in the same manner and this is eventually where the students intend on going, then why modify the language only to surprise them later?

      To address what Valizan said... I hold the same opinions and perspective and have followed your lead with trying to modify my language but...I find difficulty with this at times, especially when teaching aspects of peripheral vision. The dance is designed for performance in this respect so..how do your work around it? I have had students ask me if they can just skip that and my response is.." What if I let you skip it after three years of study and you suddenly decide you want to perform seriously?" I feel I would have done them a disservice. So...I'd also like to hear from others who do this.
      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

        Thu, December 11, 2008 - 9:24 PM
        Anne-Marie: "To address what Valizan said... I hold the same opinions and perspective and have followed your lead with trying to modify my language but...I find difficulty with this at times, especially when teaching aspects of peripheral vision. The dance is designed for performance in this respect so..how do your work around it? I have had students ask me if they can just skip that and my response is.." What if I let you skip it after three years of study and you suddenly decide you want to perform seriously?" I feel I would have done them a disservice. So...I'd also like to hear from others who do this."

        I keep it all based on posture. I don't deny that there may be an audience, but I prefer to make them think of it as other dancers that they may be dancing with as their audience. "Look straight ahead with your chin up and maintain eye contact" is a big one.

        Instead of saying stuff like, don't let the audience in front of your distract your peripheral vision, I place them around a campfire and tell them to not get hypnotized by the flames, but look to the dancer on the other side of the flames.

        As to skipping it... Jokingly tell them it is too late. The moment you started talking to them about it, they were aware of it. :))) And its true. The more they dance, the more they'll see it.

        I really wonder if there are some drills for peripheral vision that could be introduced to classes? Hm....
        • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

          Thu, December 11, 2008 - 9:55 PM
          Hey, Salome, I'm certainly not trying to make you defend yourself. Your post, while I can totally relate to a lot of it, Ya gotta admit it stirred up a lot of feelings. I think it's started a good discussion.
          • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

            Fri, December 12, 2008 - 7:09 AM
            Yeah, I think Ann Marie sees where I am coming from.

            I would have to say the hardest part of teaching is that you are also responsible for peoples feelings and how they feel about themselves. I hate hurting peoples feelings and being very (believe it or not) non-confrontational I like to avoid situations for people to get hurt in the long run. Maybe that is my main motive for laying it on the line early on what I expect from a class. I have laid awake many nights trying to figure out a way to tell someone they cannot be in a show or performance because they haven't bothered to come to class regularly and doesn't know what we are doing. I can't stand telling people that when they have their expectations up. Even with subtle warnings and examples it doesn't come through. It honestly breaks my heart.

            Though I think after much thought about this last night and about what kind of teacher I want to be. I think back to all the teachers I have had in my life. I come from an extensive competative gymnastics background which required many hours of training and many studies of dance forms. Like Tanya mentioned, I also grew up with ballet teachers that yanked a ponytail down whenever I was staring at the floor. To this day I wouldn't dare look at the floor when I dance. Even in bellydance training, my best teachers have been the ones that expected more out of me than what I thought I had, strict ones that made me take it seriously. My Flamenco teacher was HARD, but was one of the best influences on how I want to teach. I will never forget him constantly telling me to "Quit dancing like a pretty pretty bellydancer (as he mimicked graceful tiptoeing) you dance like a woman, a proud strong woman (as he stood with his chest and head held high and fist clenched)." And he made me do the step over and over and over in the view of my classmates until I somewhat got it right.

            From all this discussion it is obvious that there are different types of classes and different reasons why people want to teach. Just like there are dancers that have different motives for taking classes. I still feel strongly on what I want my classes to focus on and that is bonding with each other and creating a family that can grow together and create together and dedicate themselves to this artform and to perform to share it with others.

            I believe this dance style is meant to be shared. The confidence, closeness, trust and energy that is felt in a performace is also felt by those watching. We have a regular groupie that catches all our farrmers market performances. The reason why? He says that when he watches us he feels this energy that makes him feel like he is being lifted outside himself while he is watching. He has a handicap son he brings with him. While we perform he is calmed by our movements and escapes his handicap for about an hour while we dance.

            So yeah performing and sharing is a large part of why I teach. That is the goal I have when a new student joins..to train them to eventually be able to join us. The intention of this was to let them know what it takes to be and ITS / ATS performer. It is suppose to be fun and none of it is really anything that I haven't said in class..over and over..and over. I was just looking around to see what other people have noticed they wish they knew before they started ITS / ATS. Sure I may be a bit tough in class and my expectations. But the students know I am commited to them and my goal is to make them be the best dancer they can be and to share in the bond of what makes ATS/ ITS different from other forms of bellydance. And everyone gets a hug when class is over and they are leaving. Especially the beginners, we always hug them and thank them for coming.
            • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

              Fri, December 12, 2008 - 8:27 AM
              Thank you V! I think the imagery of a nice warm camp fire during the dead of winter will be most welcoming.

              I do see Salome...I really do. And...you will be humored to know *I* am one of those fuzzy, bunny, hand holders who goes over moves 1001 times. Picture Richard Simmons ad nauseum. I found out I am truly an inner kindergarten teacher (much to my surprise) who wants everyone to dance which is in stark contrast to my Director who wants to kick butt and not look back. We actually work very well together because of this and it certainly gives the students a clear indication of what they are headed for once they leave me if they choose to.

              I think though that your desire is to head things off ( so to speak) before awkward decisions and confrontations have to made. I don't know anyone who enjoys excluding dancers and...I think it's very important to be very clear with expectations as well as setting up specific rules (hey, if you don't attend all practice...etc)

              But

              There will always be those circumstances unplanned for and those students who will never understand. IMHO, one of the most important things a dancer needs is self awareness. This is not something that can be taught but something that is either already present or develops over time once concepts are understood. As an Instructor, you have self awareness of your teaching methods and talents as I do mine. I am not an advanced instructor...i don;t have what it takes on an emotional nor technical level and I accept this. A dancer though who does not have this awareness...where there strengths lie, where their weaknesses are, what a performance should look like, what looks more visually pleasing and so on is going to make a very poor troupe member over time. They can be a very serious student who dances acceptably but there will come a time when they may not be wiling to accept they are either not advancing, they still need to come to practice, 'no, they do not, in fact, dance better than everyone else'...and so forth. If a dancer cannot see, then they cannot advance long term and you will be faced with the inevitable circumstances of having to exclude and hurt someone anyway.

              I think in the world of Instructors and Directors, this scenario is just simply unavoidable.
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Fri, December 12, 2008 - 11:50 AM
    I thought it was amazingly funny, she does pick on us about our hands (but they are important)

    I recently started taking classes from Salome. I have watched the troupe on several occasions perform before going to her class. And yes, I do want to perform with them someday and hope that I will be invited when I have progressed enough they believe I am ready to share the stage with the group. I want to clarify why I think new beginning students of her classes come in wanting to perform. We have seen them perform somwhere, they are having a great time on stage, there is an uplifting energy that is drawing. We want to share that energy with them, be a part of it. It's the energy and excitement that draws in new students.

    "Aw, I wanted to be Rachel Brice in 8 weeks" (JUST kidding!)
    I have only been to a few of Salome's classes (and watched some Rachel Brice and other tribal dvds). I do see the amount of work in front of me and know that if I want to even be in that chorus on stage with them there is work involved. I understand that it will take time. I do not believe that she is a hard teacher or gives anyone special treatment, I have seen her eyes scan the room of wriggling bodies to make sure we are getting it. Whatever her motivation to teach, I am very excited to be a part of the experience. I think there will always be new students for her ATS/ITS classes and some will stay and some will go, some will perform some will not, but either way they will have made new friends.
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Fri, December 12, 2008 - 12:44 PM
    These are all really good points, but if I had seen a list like this when I was a beginner, I would have run away. I was not interested in performing when I took classes with Carolena 10 years ago. More importantly, I wouldn't have known what any of what that list meant. It's too much all at once and feels like a defense mechanism. I'm sure most teachers have the same frustrations. That's just the nature of teaching. Patience is key.

    These are all things students must learn in time with their own processes. They have to be allowed to have their "A ha!" moment on their own, otherwise it's contrived and not something THEY've realized, but something YOU realized for them. Also, they may discover that they are not cut out for the dance, but have learned something else about themselves in the process. I think that's pretty valuable. People get so much more out of taking classes than acquiring dance steps, getting a workout or learning to perform. Its the whole learning process.

    If these things are taught from the beginning and your attitude reflects this, it is generally understood in time. Its about creating the environment in which they want to learn, without being excluded.

    I think you'll have to channel your training from your teachers and adapt it in a way you feel is inclusive and encouraging, yet structured. It's not easy. Give your own experiences, let them get to know you and where you come from (dancewise) so they can decide if your teaching style is what they are looking for. Just be upfront and honest, in person, rather than on a flyer they can't hear the humorous tone in.

    My two pennies. Great discussion, everyone.
    *;}
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Fri, December 12, 2008 - 2:54 PM
      Fully-awesome-cute list for teachers who know exactly where you are coming from and have had those thoughts themselves!

      I admit I haven't read everything here, but I would just say, if that's how you wish to run your classes, more power to you! But maybe say it's Salome's warning label for new students and not be so general as making it for all of ATS/ITS. Beacuse as we've seen here, not everyone under the ATS/ITS label feels exactly the same way.

      Precious though. ;)
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Sun, December 21, 2008 - 10:57 PM
      "students must learn in time with their own processes"....and "it's about creating the environment in which they want to learn, without being excluded".....Sandi, you are right on point.

      A good teacher doesn't teach to assert their ego, nor to mandate codes. The best way to influence students to "see the ATS light" is to confidently exude that light from within. Dress the part, know your stuff and be sure of it! Understand that many students are going to come to your ATS class with Egyptian style coin belts or wanting to be RB. Be patient and lead by example. Remember too that we as teachers learn just as much from our students.

      Full time dance teachers know that it's wise to include every student that shows any interest in taking a class whatever the initial intention of the student. You'd never build a business with a warning label like this one (as funny and true as it may be for some of us).
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Fri, December 12, 2008 - 8:52 PM
    THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!
    Can I post this list at the studio I will be teaching in??? Of course I will add a thing or 2 more in there like:
    * People dancing cabaret with tribal fusion costumes CANNOT be called tribal dancers
    * Dancing cabaret with pops and locks is NOT Tribal Fusion.. (as our dear Asharah well said: ) thats called Bellydance fusion.. no "Tribal" in it..
    * ITS/ATS is not meant to be only a show to the audience but mainly an enjoyable dance between ppl that know each other and comunicate thru dance.. you have to look at them and "talk" while dancing.

    Those are the ones I can think of right now, your list was PURRRFect!
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Sat, December 20, 2008 - 10:35 AM
      at the last hafla i went to, i saw chicks with tribal costuming and i'd never seen them before since i haven't been to the studio in a while and i was reeeeaaally hoping that they were tribal dancers, but alas, when they started dancing in the circle, they weren't
      it was really disheartening dang it!
      and when i was just getting into bellydance, i didn't understand why anybody would care so much what kind of costume someone was wearing, but now i can see how much it would suck to see someone wearing a costume that SIGNIFIES something different, and then they're not different at all. =p
      oh well

      anyway, one of the things i like the most about ITS is the ability to dance with others, especially if you learn in a format that's relatively standardized. i want to go over to Benu in Lincoln and take some ITS classes. my teacher teaches both ITS and fusiony stuff.
      i think alot of the list, as other people have said, does come off as a bit elitist. like if my teacher had come across that way, i'd probably have felt like "ahh i dunno if i'm going to be good enough, or do i even have enough time to dedicate to it?"
      i think saying that it's flat-out a "lifestyle" might drive some people away, to be honest. let them discover that FOR THEMSELVES. if it truly is something they love to that degree, then they'll make it a lifestyle on their own. saying "this is a lifestyle!!" might keep out people who just want to TRY something new, with no strings attached, and without feeling like they suck for not being as hardcore as someone else. =p
      people learn to do things for all sorts of reasons and attempting to define someone else's reasons may or may not be welcomed. i enjoy performing and i want to do more performing, but at the end of the day, what i like most about it, is that it's a wonderful art form and i like dancing for myself just as much as dancing for people. but not everyone would agree with me. =p
      some people never intend to perform EVER (well, maybe in a halfa or somethign, but nothing bigger.) and when you see them dancing you might go "why???" to yourself, but for them it's perfectly valid.
      valizan's distinction between training dancers vs. training performers, i think, is a valid distinction to make.
      some people learn to play instruments because it allegedly helps with math comprehension. =p nothign to do with eventually playing a recital.
      but anyway, i think alot of this list is pretty good, emphasizing that it really ISN'T just something that will come in immediately and easily. and you won't be the best dancer on the block after your first session of classes. =p haha
      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

        Sat, December 20, 2008 - 10:58 AM
        "at the last hafla i went to, i saw chicks with tribal costuming and i'd never seen them before since i haven't been to the studio in a while and i was reeeeaaally hoping that they were tribal dancers, but alas, when they started dancing in the circle, they weren't
        it was really disheartening dang it! "

        And you see, that's the kind of thing that REALLY bugs me.

        I understand people being new and wanting to try it all out, but it is aggravating to see people who have zilch experience think Tribal costuming is homogeneous with any kind of bellydance. And if I hear one more person dismissively say "Hey, whatever..." I'm gonna get nasty.

        Pasting a bit of yarn on a black t-shirt is not acceptable unless it is EXTREMELY last minute.

        Thank you Elle for the phrase: "wearing a costume signifies something..."
        • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

          Sun, December 21, 2008 - 10:42 AM
          The VERY FIRST TIME I saw "Tribal" ... locally, *cringe*... it was a cabaret dancer, who was in a sort of kind of cabaret costume (turban and all), and then, she did, cabaret dance, to a very cabaret song.

          She's a really fantastic cabaret dancer (and, you know her Val), and she's a great teacher and a cool chick. But, the whole tribal thing, I walked around for a while thinking that was what it was ... cabaret, in a tribal get-up.
          • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

            Sun, December 21, 2008 - 12:26 PM
            ... I meant, she was in a sort of tribal costume (more like triba-ret really).
            • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

              Sun, December 21, 2008 - 4:59 PM
              Actually, the list hurt my feelings. It was very snobby, exclusive and had the attitude of "I'm authentic and you are not" that I hate seeing around the dance scene. I have been involved for 7 years and due to life difficulties I cannot commit to the dance. I love it with all my heart, just as much as anyone else here. To be told that if I can't make a commitment to only train to perform or dance with others or get out is a bit harsh. I am not blessed like many here to have any free time or extra funds to enjoy what you all do. Count your blessings. So when I am told I am not authentic or wanted because I can not dedicate my whole lifestyle to the dance, that is like a slap in the face and a kick in the teeth. Really, what I liked about ATS was the comradery, the inclusiveness. That everyone from every body shape, and every walk of life was welcome. We are a tribe. We are sisters (and brothers). This is about empowerment. Not about excluding people and judging them. If this was a joke, sorry I didn't get it. If this is serious, really, you should rethink tribal and discover the spirit, not the glory.
              • Amy
                Amy
                offline 4

                Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                Sun, December 21, 2008 - 11:42 PM
                Wow.

                I'm a cabaret dancer, and trying to branch out into Tribal style. This list immediately made me feel that if all Tribal dancers are that bitchy then I'm not going to bother!! Way to go...
                • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                  Mon, December 22, 2008 - 7:59 AM
                  I feel compelled to add that I take issue with this line-

                  **Forget everything you learned in Cabaret class, we will have to untrain you and start over. ITS / ATS is not just a cooler version of
                  cabaret..its a completely different style of bellydance with different rules and foundations.**

                  I began studying tribal ITS and tribal fusion after 5 years of cabaret, and my cabaret experience was incredibly helpful to me as I learned tribal. Of course I had to learn to think about the moves differently, but I in no way had to "untrain and start over." You make it sound like these dance forms are completely unrelated, which is so untrue! They're like branches of the same tree.

                  Furthermore, I don't like the idea that there are "rules" in dance. I tell my students all the time that there are no "rules" in any style of belly dance. There are standards and then there's what looks good and what looks bad. We try to do what looks good within the standards of the style. If everyone followed the "rules" there would be no evolution in the art and no fusion at all. If the "rules" of carbaret would have been followed, tribal wouldn't even exist!

                  So, i don't care if you are only handing this out to other experienced dancers, I think the sentiment is nevertheless counterproductive and frankly, not that amusing. Sorry.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                    Mon, December 22, 2008 - 8:36 AM
                    Ok dokie---well since this thread has brought up an enormous amount of conversation and a lot of consideration, I think we can all save the bitchy comments/flaming and just understand that these are someone' s opinions--- certainly we all generate from our own experiences, and I am certain that we all have strong opinions of our own. I found the list funny-- tongue in cheek, and if this is how she feels SO BE IT. But again-- i dont see why you guys have to beat this into the ground. It was funny-- whatever. Get over your f*%ing selves.

                    Thank you-- JUST *MY* opinion.
                    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                      Mon, December 22, 2008 - 8:52 AM
                      Joy! Thank you.
                      Internet "conversations" can be so hateful... there is something about not being in the same room with a person that makes it easy to forget how to be civil... or take a joke.
                      I suppose it is for the best that those who read this and don't have a sense of humor about it are so easily put off from tribal...and from just this one thread of conversation.
                      Merrychrismakwanzasolstikah! Hope I didn't miss/piss anyone off with that.
                      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                        Mon, December 22, 2008 - 9:04 AM
                        There are indeed rules...hard and fast in ATS and while less specific and more inclusive, in ITS, that range from manner, presentation, posture, positioning, arm alignment and so forth. It's not an anything goes... not at any time. If there were no rules, then even the trained eye would be unable to differentiate. Tribal fusion...I won't touch with a ten foot pole but you don't see too many knee shimmies, dancing choos choos across the floor or sequins. I'll leave it at that.

                        Next...Tribal did not derive from American Cabaret...influenced yes in some respects but this is not Tribal roots. Branches on a tree yes...but not the roots.

                        The humor in the list refers to the collective shared experiences of most, if not all the Instructors on the board. It was not meant as a 'we are right and true and pure and no one else is' nor was it meant as 'get serious or get it' for all of us. It does not address every student either. Many do get students who want to be RB in 8 weeks though. They see a video, and the Instructor starts teaching improv and they say, " Just show me the pop locky stuff". There are also those who don't like anyone in their *personal space*. How do you work with someone who flips out when touched or is uncomfortable close to people in this form of dance. And yes...there are students trained in Cabaret who refuse to learn a movement in a different manner. They learned it one way and that's that. What do you do...teach everyone else in the chorus line Cabaret? Unfortunately it is often these same students who want to start dancing and performing immediately. They are often not students that you can enlighten with understanding and knowledge either.

                        If you are not a student who expects any of the things listed on the list then it won't pertain to you. Sadly though, many students enter the classrooms who do fit the list and it leads to great frustation and sadness for both the Instructors and the students.Better to know up front what type of Instructor you have and what the expectations are. Then, as a student, choose what is best for you.

                        I can clearly see though how the list could be a turn off and potentially hurt feelings. I am sure there is a better manner of presentation. I think though that the original poster was just frustrated...and I am sure everyone feels like that....at least once in awhile.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                    Mon, December 22, 2008 - 10:02 AM
                    I'm with Mahela on the whole issue of "untraining" cabaret.

                    If I remember correctly, when Carolena Nericcio was learning to dance, she didn't think she was learning "tribal" she thought she was just learning bellydance.

                    When I teach people who are experienced Cabaret/Egyptian dancers, they see THEIR moves in a stylized form. ATS single choo choos are an Egyptian Saidi move. Torso Rotations are North African (Algerian/) trance dance moves. Undulations? Shimmies? Hello, this is the vocabulary of bellydance. I've found that Cabaret dancers pick up the ATS moves fast because their bodies already recognize the basic move. All that needs to be done is tweaking of the style to make it fit the ATS vocabulary.

                    I agree that ATS is not just a cooler version of Cabaret, but to deny the roots of where the dance came from is to offer a disrespect.
                    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                      Mon, December 22, 2008 - 10:44 AM
                      Caroleena wasn't learning Tribal hon...she is credited as the creator... (or should I say credited with the term...American Tribal to describe the unique form of dance)

                      The person who the roots can be traced back to for our current American version never made claim to either style (and still doesn't as far as I know). She was influenced by Middle Eastern dance though...not American Cabaret. No disrespect intended...honestly! ;)
                      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                        Mon, December 22, 2008 - 10:52 AM
                        Carolena was influence by Masha who was influenced by Jamila Salimpour. Jamila was mostly making shit up as she went along. Look at a lot of her interviews and stories of how she developed her dance. Like many in her day, she did not always have access to "pure" information on the topic of bellydance. So styles that grew from her were a blend of "over there" with a heavy does of American interpretations and fantasy. So Middle Eastern wasn't the only component that went into Masha's and then Carolena's training. If anything, there is a lot more American interpretive dance in there than many would like to admit.
                        • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                          Mon, December 22, 2008 - 11:25 AM
                          Well I wasn't going to go that far into it (lest I potentially start another fire storm) but you stated it well Shay. LOL


                          S: If anything, there is a lot more American interpretive dance in there than many would like to admit.
                          Probably and a lot more borrowing from other countries besides those from the ME....shocking...yes, I know.
                          • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                            Mon, December 22, 2008 - 2:11 PM
                            Ok guys...I personally was over this thread quite a while ago. I realized that some people just need to lighten up a bit and enough with the "holier than thou" attitudes.

                            The good thing about teaching a class and offering a class is that...the STUDENTS are there by choice..you can teach a class how you want (and there are many different ways as expressed on here). But no one makes anyone take a class with any teacher..so therefore..if the class is not taught how an individual feels it should..guess what..you can leave and take another class elsewhere..or become a teacher yourself.

                            Its all about the freedom of choice.

                            And there is nothing wrong with any of the opinions on here about how a class gets taught or what standards are expected in those classes. But to judge another teacher and say what they are doing is wrong without EVER being in that class is just being judgemental and petty.

                            Its one thing to say.."this is how I like to teach a class..etc.." as compared to "your wrong because your not teaching the way I am" it becomes an uneducated accusation instead of an open opinion discussion.

                            For those that understand where I was coming from and can relate..thank you.

                            For my students that defended me on here..thank you..you know that I love each of you and the higher standard that I hold you too already shows when we are together practicing, hanging out and when we perform together.

                            To those that disagree...well I guess I wont ever have to worry about you being in my class will I?






                            • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                              Mon, December 22, 2008 - 2:53 PM
                              > But to judge another teacher and say what they are doing is wrong without EVER being in that class is just being judgemental and petty.

                              I didn't really read judgment or pettiness in the responses in this thread. I did read a lot of diverse opinions about a topic that you brought up and requested input on. Those opinions different than yours were generally respectful and weren't written as a personal assault. If you weren't looking for feedback or to initiate a public discussion, then why did you post your query to a public forum?

                              > I realized that some people just need to lighten up a bit

                              Pot, allow me to introduce you to the kettle. We're both as black as this here dead horse.
                              • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                                Mon, December 22, 2008 - 3:12 PM
                                "pot, allow me to introduce you to the kettle. We're both as black as this here dead horse. "

                                Oh for fucks sake!!!

                                Alright--- let's see who can spit the farthest!!!
                                MuHHHHAHAHAHHAHAAHHhhahhahaahhaHHAHAhAHHAhah
                                • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                                  Mon, December 22, 2008 - 3:40 PM
                                  Okay, everyone take a step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath.

                                  Let's stop the snark-fest here and now.

                                  Salome and Joy, not everyone is going to agree with you. That's life. Salome, did you really expect that there would be no negative feedback to what you posted? That there would be no hurt feelings?
                                  When you put something out into the world, you'd better be prepared for what you get back, good, bad, or indifferent.

                                  We are all supposedly adults here, and should be capable of having a mature and respectful debate. Are you guys all going to continue to try to get the last word? Or agree to disagree?

                                  The last few posts have definitely degenerated into a lack of respect. Stop it now, please.
                                  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                                    Mon, December 22, 2008 - 5:02 PM
                                    Wendy--- did you even read my posts??
                                    I think you missed my point.
                                    whatever---this is ridiculous.
                                    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                                      Mon, December 22, 2008 - 5:06 PM
                                      Uh, yeah, Joy, I have been reading your posts, which seem to be quite in line with Salome's, and a touch defensive. Maybe I have missed yoru point, and you seem to have missed mine. I know you thought the list was funny. There were things I nodded at when I read it as well. But over all, I thought it was potentially hurtful to possible students. I am trying to see both sides. are you? And yes, you are correct, this is ridiculous.
                                      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                                        Mon, December 22, 2008 - 5:12 PM
                                        Yes I get defensive just like you and everyone here who found that this stupid thread got all out of whack with crappy attitudes. Please dont try to make an example of me because I was stupid enough to try to express my impatience with all the crap that everyone tried to put on one another. I was foolish enough to try to be funny and tell ppl to stop acting the ass. didnt work.
                    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

                      Mon, December 22, 2008 - 10:50 AM
                      I find that while the gross movement is picked up faster by dancers with previous experience, working withing the tribal framework is very very hard to switch to, and dancers with previous "habits" have a hard time breaking them and re-making them to work within the format. Cabaret or no, previous dance experience in any style of bellydance, or even other styles of dance, wires the brain and body in a certain way. For tribal to work, we have such specific demands in presentation, it takes some rewiring, which I think can be harder than just "wiring from scratch" in a lot of ways.

                      What I think that particular line of the post was saying was (and how I might put it is) "No, you don't necessarily have a fantastic advantage because you come from a previous bellydance background. Please come in with humility and an open mind about learning a style that is very specific in its execution, and likely very different from anything you have learned previously."
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Tue, December 23, 2008 - 10:07 AM
    I teach.

    I teach because I have to. It's like breathing.

    I teach because I found ATS and it changed my life. And it's saved it a couple of times, too.

    I teach because I want to share this absolutely amazing thing with other people.

    I had no intentions of teaching or doing this as a career when I first started. I started bellydancing because I'd herniated two disks in my back and was looking for a low-impact way to get back in shape. I thought I was going to be a writer in New Orleans and marry my photographer boyfriend. HA! Never make long-term plans.

    I was blown to a small southern town in South Carolina three years ago by Hurricane Katrina. Dance and teaching was my therapy and got me through a shitty time. A year and a half ago, my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer and he died last February. Dance is still helping me through that one.

    There was no tribal in the state of South Carolina when I started. Now I run a respected company (and circus), both in the scene and very much so in my local community. And I'm teaching tribal in Greenville and Charleston, too, and helping the girls getting started there as much as I can.

    I teach all types of people. The determined upstarts who want to join the company by next month. The giggly people who are curious. The people looking for exercise. The people looking for a fun outlet. This is a dance company town (even though we're small, we have three professional ballet companies, three professional jazz/modern companies and a major university dance program), so I get girls coming over to crosstrain from time to time. I get people who want to join Delirium. I have people who never ever think they will ever want to get onstage. Some of those change their minds, and some don't. I create a safe place to come and try it, and an established protocol for working your way up into the company if you really want it. After that, I just have a lot of enthusiasm and patience, and everyone tends to weed themselves in or out on their own fairly quickly.

    I live in an area where gender relations are still trying to catch up to the rest of the civilized world. I live in a state with the highest rate of domestic abuse in the country. I live in a culture where kids get married at 20 and divorce at 30 and need to find themselves. I drive past the confederate flag on the statehouse grounds every day.

    In my classes, I have women who have been abused, women whose husbands have left them after twenty years for younger women, women who have been raped or molested, women with tragedies and scars, cancer survivors, overworked moms, beaten down caretakers, young women looking for a direction and guidance.

    Performing is a fantastic ego boost, and man do I love throwing down an amazing and energy-sharing set with my girls, and making my community better and richer. But when you get those emails from someone thanking you for raising their self esteem, for saving their marriage, for helping them feel better while they're struggling with illness, for playing a part in giving them the courage to leave the bastard that beat them for decades..... God, what a humbling and amazing thing. This dance, and all dance really, is so much bigger than me, and so much bigger than my personal reasons for doing it.

    _____________________________

    A helpful hint I've learned on the business side of things: word of mouth is your best friend. Especially in small towns, and Southern ones. The woman who's been dancing like nobody's watching in the back of my class for two years with no designs on performing? A reporter for the big newspaper in town. She helps us get huge color photos on the front of the metro page when we have big shows coming. The woman who popped in once and was never seen again? ATS wasn't for her, but she works for the state arts council and has recommended me for gigs and helped put me in touch with a venues when I was scrambling for one. The five women who laughed and giggled their way through a month of classes and then disappeared? All well-known theatre actresses here in town who didn't stick with it, but DID tell a lot of the arts community here about how nice and professional we were. And every person who walks through that door, no matter what their motivations and how long they stick with it, is an opportunity to educate my community on what tribal is and is not. And stuff like that has made all the difference for me doing business in the middle of the Bible Belt.

    Not to mention I get paid.
    _____________________________________________

    I actually share a lot of the rules that Salome has. I approach them in a different way. So often I have to reassure or readjust the expectations of people coming into my class. How long and how much I had to struggle to get 3/4 hip shimmies. How I was petrified of 3/4 shoulder shimmies for two years. How long I had to drill to get this move. Zils. I talk about my ballet and music training and how I thought I'd take to bellydance no problem, only to have the first basics class with n.o.madic tribal kick my ass. I talk about converting many of the girls in my company from cabaret to tribal, and how you have to learn to do things a different way (usually they chime in. Most of them audit my lower classes). And I am a technique nazi, though a lot of encouragement comes with it. I think it helps the newer students to know that the pros in class went through all the same struggles, and that after 3 years, this is what we have accomplished.

    And I am no nonsense about rehearsals. I created a culture from the very beginning where you show up, work hard, retain what you learn, fix stuff at home, or you don't perform. I've pulled members in the past from shows. Not mean or holding grudges over it, just doing it when needed and telling them we'll see them next month. If my dancers have to pull out of rehearsals when they have too much real world stuff going on, they now pull themselves out, and usually well enough in advance for us to make adjustments. It works well for us.
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Wed, December 24, 2008 - 11:00 AM
      You know how much i appreciate you and how much i have gained from you, Nat.

      Even tho' i have had to "put myself in time out" lately, i think about dancing all the time. I shimmy at the sink when i wash dishes. I get excited when i watch youtube vids of ATS and actually RECOGNIZE the moves. Being your student has done amazing things for my mental state, being a part of cirque was like magic for my mister and i....dancing with you has truly changed me life. It sounds so corny but it's true. You do the women of this area a HUGE service by sharing what you love so patiently and persistently. You make me *BELIEVE* i can really do it if i work hard enough, even through those times when i am feeling insecure and unsure that the dance is really for me.

      Now i won't get all judge-y about the original post of this thread, but i will say that rules and expectations are fair enough....it's all in the delivery, i think. ATS is HARD for some of us, it does not always come naturally. Some of us are little timid mice in the back of the class. Sometimes we are clumsy and awkward and ready to scream when that move is so CLEAR inside your head but your body won't cooperate. Some of us are better at it than others. Some of us want to perform, some of us will happily stay in chorus til the end of time. But we all keep coming back, we all keep working as hard as we can to get to that break-through moment, and i am willing to be we ALL feel that same incredible rush when we're in open dance and we are in sync for even a brief moment and the reason we love dancing together is so clear.

      All instructors have to use whatever method work best for them, and their expectations, and that is perfectly respectable. AS for myself, i feel incredible gratitude for an instructor who keeps the expectations in a place that so many of us feel we can live up to, no matter how long it takes.

      Much love to ya, Natalie! :)
      • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

        Wed, December 24, 2008 - 11:19 AM
        ATS is hard, period! Experienced dancers make it look easy, but I don't think it came easily to anyone I know. I am constantly reminding my new students of that fact.

        This dance form has changed so many lives. People who have known me since before I started dancing have said it's the best thing I ever could have done for myself. It has changed my level of self confidence, and my self esteem so much.
    • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

      Mon, December 29, 2008 - 12:50 PM
      Great post, Natalie. I am so envious of the ATS community you've built in your territory, while a city as big and spread-out as L.A. only has a tiny handful of people without going to the edge of the next county. Raq on! Very inspiring.
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Sat, March 7, 2009 - 11:37 AM
    Thank you so much for this! I am about to take my first class next week with a certified sister studio of FCBD and I am extremely excited and nervous about what to expect and what was expected of me. I have only taken a caberet style class offered at my local gym 1x week for 10 weeks and I fell in love with the grace and teamwork of ATS while youtube surfing. If you could add to this please for all of us beginners what we should wear to class and what other exercises classes or routines would help make us stronger and /or more flexible? Thanks so much!!
  • Re: ATS/ ITS warning label for new students..

    Sun, March 8, 2009 - 4:41 PM
    I thought it was humorous when I read it and did have a giggle but I can see the flip side too. I think if I'd had this at my first class I'd have been pretty discouraged. But, and this is my humble opinion only, perhaps it would be a good idea to temper it somewhat with the benefits of this style of dance. So for every misconception you, as an experienced dancer, want to drum out of your students there must also be a value that you could add, like the remarkable bonding with your sister (and brother) dancers, the worldwide unity of ATS followers everywhere, the joy of that bargain find that just completes your costume, the realisation that you are both woman and beautiful...

    I know that detracts from the humour of the situation but, in my opinion only, it's a very fine line to tread between giving someone a dose of reality and scaring them away!!

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