Let's see if I can explain this without rambling....When doing the Egyptian full turn, I have a problem...since most traditional music is 4x8, I'm annoyed when I find myself to the front when I should be to the back, according to the music...I have 5-6-7-8 left of the count, where I would normally finish to the back so that I can go into the next step on the 1 of the next 8. I find that I do one final Egyptian to the front before changing, but this is not right according to the #7 dvd - and ATS is so logical all the time, I can't help but feel that I'm missing something. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
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Sweden
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 12:37 AMHello there..We count the Eqyptian to the front with the cue for the full turn as 1-2-3-4, then execute the full turn, which usually takes count 5-6, then you've got just a couple of beats remaining to begin a simple one count move like a hip bump to get your equillibrium back. -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 3:29 AMEven if you come from a half-turn? I do the full turn between 4 and 5, and have my right foot ready to step on the 5, just as if I had done a half turn... -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 6:27 AMWe do it in the same count as Robin. The Egyptian to the front that starts the full turn is 1234. After the Egyptian to the front, the right foot is ready to step on the 5, so that's when we START the turn. Then we transfer weight onto the left and land on roughly the 6. It leaves the right foot ready for a hip bump or something on the 7. You don't actually have enough time to do a full 4-count of Egyptian without breaking up the musical phrase. -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 9:04 AMHmm... Now I wonder if I've been doing it wrong.
I count the Egyptian half-turn as the "pre-cue" 4 counts to the front - turn to the back on 4 - 4 counts to the back, turning to the front on 8, then actually cue the full turn:
Shoulders angle with the hips to cue the full turn on 1, step back to neutral on 2, "wind-up" by bringing the left hip forward on 3, and execute the full turn on "and-4."
Curiously,
Ilyena -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 11:22 AMOh, no - I can't count. We don't turn on the 5, we turn on the "and" after 4. Left foot hits the ground & starts the turn on 4, right foot is swinging around on the "and" and landing on the 5. It's actually the "and" after 5 where we're weight shifting to the left foot, which makes the right foot ready for a step to start on the 6. If the music is fast, we're landing on 5, but not shifted to the left until 6, and can't start a step on the right until 7.
Still leaves you with 2 or 3, not 4, counts to do the next step in, but my previous counting explanation made NO SENSE AT ALL. :)
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 10:42 AMI'll take a stab at this. The Egyptian full turn is always cued from the half turn, right? So it all depends on when you cue the HALF turns. One half turn takes 4 counts: 1-2-3 and you turn on 4. Now you are facing the back, so you do 5-6-7 and turn on 8 and now you are facing front again. If you are only doing half turns this works out great with the music.
But if I KNOW that I'm going to end the sequence with a full turn, I cue it on the 5 and not on the 1. So I do 5-6-7 turn on 8, now I'm facing back. So I do 1-2-3 turn on 4 and I'm facing front. Then I do as many half turns as I want (or as the music dictates), and when I'm facing front, cue the full turn on 5-6-7 full turn on 8 and TAH DAH!
Does that make sense? -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 11:22 AMSo, they Egyptian basic is a 4 count turn. Even with the half turns, it's still 4 counts, not 8.
The turn is always done with the weight on the right foot, on the 3, allowing you to land on the left, and set up to start on the 1 on the right foot again.
Yes, the full turn comes after the half turns, and it is cued by doing the same cue as for a half turn. This is why we don't cue the half turn every time.
I just did over and over, and this is what I'm seeing, I'll check with Carolena to see if it's right:;
My cue for the full turn starts with my body flipping to the left on 1, center on 2, right on 3, and the turn is actually happening on my left foot on 4, when I come back around to the front, my weight is on the left, and the right foot is propped up on the ball on 1.
Hey, Sandi! What do you think? -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 12:25 PMThanks for the counts! I've been counting the Egyptian basic as 4 but the Half-Turn as 8 to remember that the music phrasing has to account for getting back to the front, but now that I'm thinking about it, if you cue the Egyptian Half-Turn and the follower doesn't pick up on the turn in order to signal that she (or he) wants to take over the lead, you would have only done 4-counts. *grin* I love learning. -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 2:16 PMHmmm, I agree that one egyptian takes 4 counts, with the turn happening on the 4 - that would make the egyptian half turn one to the front = 4 and one to the back =4, which is 8 total. When you do the full turn, the cue is again to the front with the turn happening on the four, but then you face front again on the 5 and need to change into another step, but the problem is that most music phrases change after 8. It feels "wrong" to change steps on the 5. Does that make any more sense? -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 3:09 PMUlla, if you change the count to 4, you are changing the move on the 1. With the Egyptian half turn, even if you counted it as an 8, you still wouldn't change the move on the 5 unless you were on a two sided stage.
With a full turn, you would be changing the move on the 1. There is no 5.
This is a FatChance move you are talking about. As a teacher for FatChance, I am telling you the way we count it. With the exception of the moves brought in by Devyani, all our moves are either 2 or 4 count. That's how Carolena has always counted them out.
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 10:30 PMI believe they said earlier that those extra counts (5-8) were filled up with a simple 1-count move such as hip bump, to take you smoothly into the next bar.
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 7:10 PMWendy: Yes, the full turn comes after the half turns, and it is cued by doing the same cue as for a half turn. This is why we don't cue the half turn every time.
Oh wow Wendy...just lost me on this...How do you distinguish then if you don't cue it each time ? In other words....what would distinguish using half turns by themselves from using half turns with full turns in a series? -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:16 PMhihi.
the half turn is cued from the basic only once and always comes back to the front (provided no one steals the lead with another move). thereafter, you do not cue the half turn again - if you come back around to the front from a half turn and continue with the egyptian, it is understood that the half turns will continue until another move is cued. so, if you don't want to go around again with the half turn, you have to immediately cue something else upon hitting the front such as an arabic or hip bump or what have you.
if you come back around to the front from a half turn and cue, that is the cue for the full turn.
does that help?
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:18 PMOnce you cue a half turn, you keep doing half turns until you change the movement. That is our hard and fast rule about Egyptian half turns. When you understand that, you don't need to cue the half turn every time around.
If, during the series of half turns, you want to do a full turn, then you do another cue. Does that make sense? -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:20 PMThe reason for this rule about the half turns is that we've found that in doing half turns with a partner, we build up a lot of momentum, so much so that if we come back to the front in an Egyptian, the follower is more than likely going to read that as still doing half turns, and will turn again to the back, even if the leader stays facing front. So once we go into half turns, when we want to go out of them, we'll finish the 4 cts facing back, and as we turn back to the front, we transition into a new move, something with a distinct arm change, like an arabic or pivot bump. -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:21 PMJinx! Hi, Heather! :-) -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:27 PMhi beautiful wendybird!!!
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:45 PMWendy: Once you cue a half turn, you keep doing half turns until you change the movement. That is our hard and fast rule about Egyptian half turns. When you understand that, you don't need to cue the half turn every time around.
If, during the series of half turns, you want to do a full turn, then you do another cue. Does that make sense?
Absolutely! I misinterpreted what you initially said and thought that you were using the same cue for both the half turn and the full turn. I thought maybe you had a specific count or something. Just want to make sure I am on the same page. -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:49 PMOkay, now I'm confused! We do use the same cue for the half and full turn, it's just that once you're in half turns and you see the cue again, you know it's cueing a full turn.
Or did you mean you thought that when we cue the half turns we are also cueing the full turns?
Gah! My head is spinning now. -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 9:41 PMROTF...sorry Wendy
I *think* I understand now. It's late on the East Coast here.Sigh! In my troupe we actually use a different cue so as not to confuse people like myself (who gets confused alot). I was intrigued by the use of the same cue and how it was used in conjuction with the two moves...without confusion.
Ummm...hope that makes sense.
Thanks! And thank you to Heather! -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 11:04 PMOh dear, sorry about confusing everyone ;)
Wendy, I was talking about 5-8 in the music, not the step...I understand now that you never use that count, always just 1-4 for the egyptian. So when you do the full turn, you ALWAYS change into another step directly after turning? Can you cue another full turn to "fill out" the phrase in the music? At least if the song is not too fast :) -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 11:14 PMAh! I get you now, Ulla. Sorry for misunderstanding.
You don't have to change the move coming out of a full turn, but you would continue to do full turns until you change the movement, and that can be tricky, because once you start those full turns, it's hard to stop them. It's the never ending vortex of the Egyptian Full Turn. :-)
And as with the half turn, you cue it the first time, but don't re-cue if you do more than one in a row.
We tend to just do one, as an accent or punctuation, and our tendency is to end it in a pivot bump with the first arm position, because that acts as a great 'braking' mechanism. But your mileage may vary. -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 11:28 PMYeah, you could dig yourself into the ground with that vortex :))
Thanks for the clarification Wendy, now I know how it works - I just have to practice coming into the bump after the turn...:)) -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 5:24 AMIm sooooo glad I've been doing them right! My head was spinning reading the posts LOL
At the moment we default into the bump after a full turn too!
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 10:00 AMHi Ulla. I have had the same doubt and I think I understand what you're asking. It's more a musical phrasing question than a movement question, am I right? I made an attempt earlier to answer your question. Did you read my first reply? Did it help?
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 9:05 PMOkay. I think y'all figured this out already, but I can't tell what all went on here. Here's how I see it. Pretty much the same way as Wendy described, only, I see the cue differently.
1/2 turns = slightly exaggerated Egyptian upper body angles
Full turns = really exaggerated Egyptian upper body angles
The way I learned it was: since the Egyptian alone needs to have a forward facing upper body, any exaggerated upper body angle would be the cue for the 1/2 turn. For the Full Turn, using the momentum of the 1/2 turns and adding an even deeper upper body angle would be the cue for the full turn and add even more momentum to get around.
I'm not even going to get into the counts.
Hope I haven't added to the confusion!
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 1:04 PMSharon - yes I know what you mean - if you know that you are going to end with the full turn, you can take that into calculation when starting the half turn...though most of the time, I'm not that organised when improvising :)) It's a good idea though! And yes, it''s a music phrasing question.
Sandi - that's how it seems to me too - with the momentum from the half turn, the full turn cue becomes "bigger" than the cue for the half turn. It's also useful to do it really exaggerated since it's harder for the followers to see it when you're turning. -
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Re: Egyptian full turn - help needed...
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 3:45 PMYou guys rock , you guys rawk, you grrls rawk, you grrls raq!!!!!! THANKS!
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